539 BCE

by Zico 142 Replies latest jw friends

  • scholar
    scholar

    Jeffro

    1041

    Agreed! Ezekiel 40:1 simply refers to the fact that Ezekiel prophesied in the 25th year of the exile and the 14th year after the city had been struck down. So what?

    I love facts and I love Jeremiah 25:12 because it is my favourite text. I love that scripture. Your interpretation of that text is bogus and nonsense and our interpretation is better than yours.

    There is no need to twist the scripture because they read plainly and simply for Jeremiah consistently states that the land would become a desolated place without an inhabitant and even tells its duration in that state of seventy years and not fifty. The major exile began with the final destruction of the city duriung Neb's 18th year and the last year of Zedekiah when the land was totally emptied. No other interpretation makes sense.

    Further, in Neb's 23 rd year other exiles were taken from other areas outside of Judah so there is no problem here.

    If your chronology is superior to Jonsson then Jonsson would like to know and you will make trouble for yourself with other apostates. Interestingly other scholars using the same secular chronology propose 588 and 589 so the matter is further confused.

    You cast aspersions on other Witnesses becaus ethey do not go outside the square but you forget that scholar has gone outside the square and has been studying chronology and has many books on chron ology not published by the Society since the seventies. This means that scholar is familiar with all aspects of chronology and is well qualified to endorse as accurate that chronology.

    Regarding the twenty year gap during the short Neo- Babylonian period is not of my making but simply comes into existence when the seventy years is fed into the mix. Now if we omit the seventy years then all is well but if we p;ut it in as we must do as it represents a major period of biblical history in that rather short period of Neo-Babyloian history., In fact, from the reign of Nebuchadnezzer to the last king Nabonidus we have a total period of some 66-67 years which is dominated by the lon ger period of sev enty years contemporaneous with that same period. This means that the seventy years demands scholarly acceptance and any attempt to ignore this critical period is dishonest, deceitful scholarship and I condemn all those guilty of such subterfuge.

    How then care there be any other evidence for that period could overide the most outstanding piece of biblical history. The seventy years obliterates totally all other secular evidence of the NB period for the purposes of constructing a chronology. In short, the seventy years makes such so-called evidence farcical and redundant. Jonsson's so called 18 lines of evidence is irrelevant when compared to the historical validity of the biblical seventy years. Therefore, this fact alone ensures the validity of 607 BCE from all other pretenders such as 589, 588, 587, 586 BCE.

    Yes the word that was accomplished in Chronicles was the Return of the Exiles in 537 and not the Fall of Babylon in 539 BCE and such Return ended that seventy years. So it was that those exiles became servant to Babylon until a new ruler at Babylon namely Cyrus who then released the exiles in 537 BCE. The date of 537 for the return is certainly compatible with known history of that period as most reference works attest, There is no reference publsihed that offers anything other that 537 is the date for the return.

    I do need to grasp at straws because my situation is not desperate for we make our views publicly known and are quite able to public defend such views. The Bible reads plainly and simply on these matters so we have nothing to fear.

    Jeremiah quite clearly refers to the seventy years as a period of desolation, exile and servitude and Josephus also agrees.

    scholar JW

  • scholar
    scholar

    Alan F

    4513

    You have the facts wrong as usual. It is in fact secular scholar who advocate 586 following on that great chronologist Thiele and it is the religious or evangelkical scholars who push 587 which is the preferred apostate date arising from Carl Jonsson

    scholar JW

  • scholar
    scholar

    hilary-step

    Not bothered about this for celebrated WT scholars have long championed biblical chronology with its date of 607. The joke is on the community of scholars because they collectively cannot agree on any chronology at all or in fact any date for either the OT or the NT.

    scholar JW

  • scholar
    scholar

    Leolaia

    Forget it, Jeffro will not bother to read this article because he has a superior chronology and thus knows more about this than you or Robert Young. Jeffro will not bother even to obtain such an article because when I have tried to get him to research matters further he refuses so you are wasting your time.

    If you have read this article you will notice the salient fact which endorses scholar's policy that chronology is about methodology and interpretation, it is this realization that initiated Young to survey key issues of OT chronology and which he addresses in a couple of articles.

    scholar JW

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro
    In no way is the chronology of the Society loosely based upon the Bible and contradictory for these are simply your dishonest claims whern you have nothing to offer as an alternative. You have raised nothing substantial in refuting 607 but have simply copied false ideas from the Jonsson hypothesis.

    Present facts, not claims, 'scholar'!

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro
    Jeffro, I want to point out that Jonsson is convinced that 587 B.C. is the correct date for Jerusalem's fall. For the most part, secularly oriented scholars accept this date, whereas religiously oriented scholars tend to accept Edwin Thiele's conclusions about 586. I think 587 is right, too.

    I prefer to examine source material myself and come to my own conclusions based on logic rather than relying primarily on 3rd-party sources such as Jonsson. My own analysis has led me to 587 as the only possible year for the fall of Jerusalem. Furthermore, I am yet to see any convincing information, secular or religious, to defend the assignation of the year 586.

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro
    Jeffro....Have you seen the 2004 JETS article by Rodger C. Young? He makes the most objective and powerful case for 587 I have yet seen. I can send you the paper if you don't have it.

    No, I haven't seen it. Feel free to send me a link. However, the evidence from the bible only allows for 587 unless all other dates assigned to Nebuchadnezzar are also moved. It therefore doesn't surprise me in the least that an even more powerful case for 587 can be provided. If I could be bothered, I could compile a more powerful case myself than I have already given.

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro
    Josephus is the major primary source for Berossus and scholars agree that Josephus is the most reliable source for the preserved quotations of Berossus' work (JJonsson, 1998, p.92-3). Both Berossus and Josephus give conflicting numbers for the reigns of some of the kings for the Neo-Babylonian period and I and the celebrated WT scholars share no responsibility for this dilemna. The texts in Chronicles, Daniel and Jeremiah uniformly attest to the simple fact that Judah lay desolate or was devastated for a period of seventy years but if you interpret these texts differently then so be it, Josephus also showed several times that the seventy years was a period of exile, desolation and servitude so Josephus agrees with the celebrated WT scholars and so do I.

    While you are trying to misdirect the facts he to alleged discrepancies between secondary sources, the primary contemporary cuneiform documentation paints a complete picture of the Neo-Babylonian period. The Society's interpretations that you cling to so doggedly attempt to make a mockery of the bible. Despite the fact that bible can be completely harmonised with secular history, you choose to accept a chronology that paints the bible as foolish. Rather than support the historicity of the bible accounts given by Daniel and Jeremiah, you elevate the Society instead. You are a hypocrite.

    Frankly, I am not interested in your other silly questions because these are insignificant issues when you consider the many difficulties and issues that NB cannot address such as the missing 40 years of Egypt, the twenty year gap problem. the missing seven years of Neb and the omission of the seventy years of Judah. Such omission of these biblical facts proves that the history of the Neo-Babylonian period is deficient and as I have always said: Bad history = Bad chronology.

    All of the mock issues you again present here have been thoroughly dealt with. They are red herrings, strawmen, ghosts in the machine. Get some facts, 'scholar'.

  • hillary_step
    hillary_step

    Scholar,

    I love facts

    LOL....sure you do, like a dog likes fleas.

    HS

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro
    Readers on this board will notice that you are nothing but a bluff and your hypothesis for 538 is sheer nonsense because it is simply too short a time. You have provided no proof that 538 was the year for the Return and Josephus does not support your nonsense. I invite other readers to analyze your nonsense and spot the flaws as an academic test, I will respond only after others have read your nonsense and made a definitive comment. Is everyone up for the challenge? Let there be proof for 538 and then this material can be published so as to enlighten the scholarly community and Carl Jonsson.

    Drop the smokescreen, 'scholar'. Obviously no-one else is going to try to defend your position, and you have already proven yourself to be wilfully ignorant of the proof already presented. You will likely use that as your excuse, perpetually 'waiting' for someone else to provide ever more and more information and always claiming that it's not yet enough for you to counter with supposed 'proof'.

    Jeffro has had a go so others should likewise follow his fine example.

    Yes, that's right. I've even provided a diagram which clearly indicates that 538 is indeed the correct year, providing ample time for the Jews to return during the favourable summer months of 538. What is more, for many months I have provided this information in spreadsheet form before the issue was prominently brought to the fore on the forum by AlanF

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