Fair minded person with a fair point of view (page 3)

Dismembered

Greetings Keo,

Welcome to JWD.

Dismembered

avengers

All this that I've read about the WTS becoming an NGO affiliate of the UN seems to be a mountain made out of a mole hill.

That is not a fair minded statement.

The Watchtower has been telling their followers for years that the UN is the Scarlet-colored Wild Beast depicted in Revelation.
Anyone who has any sort of affiliation with this Wild Beast cannot stay in Jehovah's clean Organization.
Aren't the "leaders"supposed to give their followers the good example?
So how can you say that we are making a mountain of a mole hill?

I wrote letters to them asking how it can be possible that on one end they tell the followers that any kind of affiliation will result into disfellowshipping
and yet on the other hand they registered with the Wild Beast? How can this be?

They answered me with fallacies. They never addressed the issue. The Watchtower leaders are liars.

Andy

AuldSoul

keo,

All this that I've read about the WTS becoming an NGO affiliate of the UN seems to be a mountain made out of a mole hill.

I agree, it IS making a mountain out of a mole hill. However, in the interests of fairmindedness, I have to examine honestly whether the mountain is of apostate making or of WTS making.

According to the WTS, if I wish to join a local organization for purposes of swimming or gym privileges, I have to analyze the objectives of the organization and its practices to make a determination whether it would be appropriate for a Christian. In the case of the YMCA, ever since 1979 if my conscientious decision differs from their decision I will be announced as disassociated. (Watchtower January 1, 1979, p. 30, Questions From Readers) My uncle wrote the response they published, almost verbatim. He corresponded extensively with the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society on that issue.

From this, it strikes me that the mountain was made some years ago. Since that time, many JWs have been summarily cut off from all that is familiar to them for joining organizations the WTS deems to have "objectives contrary to the Bible and, hence, is under judgment by Jehovah God. (Isa. 2:4; Rev. 19:17-21)" (Organized to Do Jehovah's Will (2005) p. 155, par. 2) Because it is viewed severely enough to serve as cause for cutting off a congregational "nothing" I wonder how such an activity could be viewed less severely when it comes to the organizational "somethings."

Romans 2:1-2 Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are, if you judge; for in the thing in which you judge another, you condemn yourself, inasmuch as you that judge practice the same things. Now we know that the judgment of God is, in accord with truth, against those who practice such things.

Should those in a position to judge be held to a standard lower and more forgiving than the standard deemed minimal for those whom they judge? I think this is a rational and fair question. How do you answer?

Respectfully,
AuldSoul

fullofdoubtnow

Hi keo, and welcome to the board

itsallgoodnow

welcome Keo,

And I'm not a hater of gay people. I work with a couple of them and they are pretty good people. One of them cuts my hair.

this has to be the funniest thing I have read all day.

I can relate to many parts of your story. Even the gay parts. A few years ago, I was watching this TV show with 2 guys making out and I didn't like it, but for a change, I asked myself why I didn't like it, and I realized it was really something from my JW thinking that was still with me. It really woke me up to the fact that I need to question all of my thinking and why I think this way or that way and whether it is just a way of thinking that was drilled into me that I never needed to let go or is it really what I thought was right? It's been awhile since that happened and since that time, I have come to think that gays are just born that way. It's not a sickness or a sin, it just is. But I don't want to get preachy to you, I just think that as long as you really ask yourself why you think or feel this way or that way, you might be surprised.

bigmouth

Welcome keo. I think that many come on this forum with the same zeal and fervour that they came into the 'truth'.
Everything comes rushing out with all the emotion and venom that has been bottled up. It's cathartic for some.
As you know a balance usually settles at some point and you start to move forward.
Look forward to hearing more from you.
Pete

keo15929

Thanks for all of the feed back. I realize that a lot of people feel hurt because of what they've been through with the WTS and I certainly don't mean to be insensitive to that. Thing is, with me, I tend to always give the benefit of the doubt. I feel very bad for people who have lost the freedom to associate with their loved ones. Like I said, I completely disagree with shunning, period. I dread ever being disfellowshipped because my sister is a staunch witness and I am very attached to my 2 little nieces that I helped to raise. The elders don't bother me. I just avoid them and if I do run into them in public I keep the conversation very brief.

I have simply faced the fact that I have doubts about all of this and I can't live a lie by denying that. There are just too many inconsistencies. At the same time, I know that most of the Witnesses are genuinely good people. Even the leaders. I don't deny that they have been dishonest. I view them as a bunch of men who sincerely believe that they are God's emabassadors trying to make sense of all of the confusion and it's impossible. I don't believe they are being led by "Gods Spirit". But, if I put myself in their shoes I'd probably be lying to and I wouldn't even realize that I was lying. They are in a very difficult situation trying to figure out how to best dictate how others should live. No one should have that responsibility and they think, in all sincerety, that God has given them the task of doing just that. I don't envy them, especially given the fact that the Bible leaves so many details unanswered. They are trying to look into this book and find the answer to every little thing and it's impossible. They even disagree among themselves and just go with a majority vote. Think about this for a second, imagine you firmly felt "the Spirit" led you to believe that the the end would come in 1925. You feel it is your responsibility to warn everyone. You think that God holds you accountable to do so. So you emphactically proclaim that year to everyone. Then the year comes and goes. What do you do? Imagine being in that situation. You were so sure you were right. You told everybody. Remember this though, there is simply no way you could doubt that you were being led by God's Spirit. If you doubted that you might as well throw your whole life away. All of those years of self sacrifice you put into this cause. So what do you do? How do you explain the unexplainable? I don't know what I would say if I were in that situation but I'm sure it would rink of dishonesty. That's just human nature.

That's how I look at this whole situation. Imperfect men, with sincere beliefs, attempting to do the impossible because they really believe that God expects this of them.

Maybe I'm just naive, but, unless someone is an axe murderer, rapist, or some sort of predator I tend to find ways to understand and sympathise with them regardless of whether I agree with them or not.

AuldSoul

keo: Then the year comes and goes. What do you do? Imagine being in that situation. You were so sure you were right. You told everybody. Remember this though, there is simply no way you could doubt that you were being led by God's Spirit.

Personally? I say, "I am so sorry. I was certain it was God's Spirit, but that source never directs the publishing of untruths, so it must have simply been my own reasonings and emotions. Please forgive me."

But not the WTS. When 1914 came and went they said, "The World Has Ended—Millions Now Living Will Never Die" (the talk given in 1918 claiming the world ended invisibly in 1914, for the first time referring to 1925).

That is not remorse, it is deceit; trading the truth for a lie, reality for a created fantasy. Their choice was to maintain a vainglorious lie at the expense of spiritual and intellectual integrity. Their choice was to encourage innocent, ignorant people to take up this lie and spread it to others.

I would not have made that choice. I know for sure, because when I found out it was a lie I stopped spreading it and set about encouraging others to do the same, even though it cost me the friendship and respect of many, and it cost my relationship with my family. I would not have made their choice, so I will not excuse them for it.

Respectfully,
AuldSoul

Dismembered

Greetings Keo,

:They are in a very difficult situation trying to figure out how to best dictate how others should live. No one should have that responsibility and they think, in all sincerety, that God has given them the task of doing just that.

Exactly, and how dare they go ahead with that responsibility(dictating to others) with ruining peoples lives. A "position of responsibilty"that many of them vied for. Question their authority and see just how sincere they are. They'll have you in the "back room" PDQ.

Dismembered

blondie

Fair-minded viewpoint

Not a rapist or a murderer

What about the sister in Malawi in the 1970’s who was told not to buy a "political" card and was gang-raped?
What about the brother in Mexico in the 1970’s who was allowed to bribe government officials for a cartilla so he did not have to serve in the military?
What about the brother or sister who did not have an organ transplant from 1967 to 1980 because it was a Dfing offense and died?
What about the brother or sister who had an organ transplant from 1980 on and lived because now the WTS said it was a conscience matter?
What about the brother who lost 12 years of his life or died in prison because he was not allowed to choose civilian service instead of military service? What about the brother who was able to choose civilian service starting in 1996 when it became a personal choice?

Fair minded person with a fair point of view

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