Yates verdict

by sammielee24 74 Replies latest jw experiences

• 

  Nowman

  Thanks for your comment Gregory. I agree with you. I had posted earlier and felt a bit "like I was being attacked" and I say this in a non-sensative way, I was not offended but it did make me feel somewhat disgusted for a time because I was expressing my thoughts and feelings on the subject and then I basically was told some things that really shocked me and I did not understand the comments back but its Ok. People can say what they want, I still feel the same as I did with my 1st comment on this thread and at least there are those that can appreciate it like I do theirs.

  Nikki
• 

  JWdaughter

  To six of nine: If my comment about the insanity any parent of 5 (or 1) said something to you, I think you heard it wrong. Parenting is the most gratifying, terrifying, satisfying project,job, dream, goal, aspiration and hope in my life. I am the mother of 3 and would have had more if I had been so blessed. Parenting is hours of routine punctuated by moments of pure joy, terror and anger, frustration, laughter and pain. And if that makes doing whatever you have the urge to do during the hard parts justifiable on the grounds of insanity, then any parent ought to get carte blanche to break any law we please. Anything goes if one has progeny? Hope not! Do you have kids?
• 

  Big Tex

  "I truly hope that she faces what she has done and accepts responsibility."

  I know you're not a cruel guy Chris, but that seems cruel. It's like saying "I hope this person who has suffered from one of the most horrendous things that can happen to a person, will wake up and have to suffer twice as much". Of course that is likely exactly what is happening to her, but to wish it on her?

  How is facing what she has done and accepting personal responsibility cruel? Your position baffles me.

  In a 12 step recovery group, very often the recovering addict or alcoholic must make a list of those they have hurt due to their addiction and apologize or make amends where necessary, feasible or possible. This is accepting responsibility for your actions, whether those actions were caused while you were in your right mind or not. It means that you are recognizing you hurt others, and you attempt to take the pain away from others and put it where it belongs: on yourself.

  I honestly fail to see how hoping she reaches a point where she not only recognizes what she has done, but accepts personal responsibilty is cruel. Nowhere did I say I wanted her to suffer. At the same time I am horrified at this crime. A fitting consequence (please note I did not say punishment) would be for her feel that horror herself. There are consequences for actions, and in this case her actions were monstrous. That statement holds true whether she was in her right mind or not. Her actions were monstrous.

  I would not want her to be told she was not to blame, or it wasn't her fault. Honestly I'm not sure I really believe her defense. I recognize it is possible, and there's no doubt she meets the legal qualifications and deserves to be found not guilty, but on a real-life level, I really don't know. I lack the expertise to say one way or the other. But to my way of thinking, recovery and healing begins to take place when we accept the reality of the event (whether we were the victim or the offender) and start assigning responsibility.

  I believe all offenders, whatever the crime, should accept responsibility for what they have done. And if that acceptance causes them pain, well sorry but I don't have a great deal of sympathy. Again, please note I am not hoping and wishing for her to suffer. Note I said:

  To my poor mind, living with the knowledge of brutally murdering your 5 children is a helluva punishment. I have to think that in the middle of the night, when no one is around, no one is watching, no act (real or imagined) is being played, that this woman has to got hear the voices of her childre, she has got to see their faces as they died.

  That image, those sounds, has got to be worse than spending a lifetime prison.

  I do not see where I was hoping for her to be in pain. I did say that, I would think, living with it (i.e., accepting responsibility) is a helluva punishment and frankly worse than spending a lifetime in prison. I would think restoration to sanity, and seeing your child's face as he is drowning or hearing his screams would be hell itself, and THAT is worse than a lifetime in prison.

  I did not say I wanted her to feel that. I did say I wanted her to accept responsibility, a subtle but important difference. I'm surprised that you seem to be putting words in my mouth Six.

  Chris
• 

  SixofNine

  Hi Nikki, first of all, I'm glad that you want to continue posting. It's not my intention to shut you up; it may at times be my intention to try and get you to see something differently. But in the end, it's always your right to form your own opinions. But this is not a kingdom hall where we sweep differing opinions under the rug or try to maintain a facade of "unity".

  Having said that, I don't see why your being a mother really has very much to do with this, and I certainly don't see how it keeps you from being empathetic to Andrea Yates. You, as a mother, can see just how far removed from reality you would have to be to do what she did. I, as a father can see the same thing thru a father's eyes and feelings.

  However, it's not like our thoughts as parents carries that much more weight; I loved children before I was a parent, and I love them now as a parent.

  I'm sure there were mothers (and fathers) on the jury as well.

  And as for you Gregor, let me be clear: It would have been WRONG to pick on and bully Andrea Yates further to make YOU and people like you feel better, to pander to your most base "instincts". I doubt your pendulum has seen center since well before your baptism.
• 

  Nowman

  sixofnine, I like posting here and I certainly will continue to post because I believe there is a common bond here period.

  Yet, anything that I had said on this thread has absolutely nothing to do with my past, being a former JW. I read and re-read your posts on this thread and really did try to see it from your prospective. I think alot of it is your delivery, the way you come across, maybe if you and I were talking in person, I would take a different way, but oh well. I appreciate what your thoughts are on the subject but I do not understand your examples of why I shouldn't feel the way I should feel, and you keep on doing with others. I feel the fact that me being a mother has everything to do with this subject (for me at least), the way I feel about Andrea, thats why I continue to post and share comments about it. I am not here to make points or convince anyone to agree with me, I am only expressing how sickened I am by her. Again, six, I personally do not have sympathy for her, thats it. I am not knowledgeable about our justice system or what the laws are regarding those that are insane. This is not something I have to know the details of at this point until maybe I feel I ve been treated unfairly, basically to when it may apply to me. In the mean time, I feel the way I feel and I shared and will continue to share my thoughts. That the whole basis of all the times I have posted on this subject, bottom line.
• 

  SixofNine

  How is facing what she has done and accepting personal responsibility cruel

  You know how your brain has totally hidden things from you Chris? You know how your brain did this completely on it's own, w/o any concious effort from you? It seems to me that it would be cruel to ask you to be "responsible" for something you did during that time when your brain, your self, your conciousness, was unavailable to you, Chris. How much responsibility? How can you "take responsibility" for things completely out of your control?

  In a 12 step recovery group, very often the recovering addict or alcoholic must make a list of those they have hurt due to their addiction and apologize or make amends where necessary, feasible or possible. This is accepting responsibility for your actions, whether those actions were caused while you were in your right mind or not. It means that you are recognizing you hurt others, and you attempt to take the pain away from others and put it where it belongs: on yourself.

  I'm not aware of any 12 step program for postpartum induced psychotic delusion. I'm not aware of any addictions that led Andrea Yates to kill her children. ALL evidence points to postpartum psychotic delusion, as opposed to a series of bad choices or addictions.

  but on a real-life level, I really don't know

  Well, that suprises me given what you know about the human mind.
• 

  Gregor

  And as for you Gregor, let me be clear: It would have been WRONG to pick on and bully Andrea Yates further to make YOU and people like you feel better, to pander to your most base "instincts".

  Well!, as for YOU, Sixofnine! harumphh!

  As usual, my friend, you sound extremely sure of your wonderful self! "Pick on and Bully" are YOUR words. We have been refering to the implimentation of established legal punishment for the crime of murdering 5 small children. Apparently, by your way of thinking, murderers are only punished to satisfy the base instincts of us backward hillbillys who think that child murderers should be dealt with harshly by society. Who also feel that, in this case, the so-called insanity defense is hard to accept because of the very actions of Yates at the time before, during and after the planned, methodical drowning of her five children in a bathtub one at a time. Since when do we, especially on this site, accept the idea that egregious acts of religeous psychosis are automatically to be excused. Agreed, her attorneys won on their appeal. This does not mean it is RIGHT in the moral sensibilities of a lot of people. That's what is being aired out on this topic. Why not respect the feelings of people who honestly don't agree with you instead of caricaturing us as mean spirited, knuckle dragging rednecks. I respect you but disagree with you a lot. I really don't think your stance on this subject is correct. But the world will continue to turn no matter what the JWs say, right? Honest debate very gradually improves the lot of mankind but, like water dripping on a stone, it does take a lot of it see improvement.
• 

  sf

  On PRIMETIME last night, they showed new tapes of her being interviewed from about two weeks ago.

  She was asked why she waited so long to commit the murders. She replied she had to wait until no one was around. He asked her why. She states so that no one would stop her.

  At that point, the program shifts back to the courtroom ruling.

  I was infuriated at this point because the answer was simple..."because it was WRONG." But the idiot didn't ask her why it mattered if anyone stopped her.

  ughhhh

  I have no feelings the absolute asshole of a husband that kept sticking his wong in her, in which kept her pregnant, even after knowing how sick she was.

  All I care about is knowing how terrified and helpless those kids were.

  sKally
• 

  Big Tex

  It seems to me that it would be cruel to ask you to be "responsible" for something you did during that time when your brain, your self, your conciousness, was unavailable to you, Chris

  You mean like when someone is stoned or drunk, drives and kills an innocent person?

  I am not speaking of legal responsibility Six. And I stand by what I said. This was not a victimless crime. She is a murderer. What she did was hideous. I'm sorry but I don't see what is wrong in saying that.

  And yes, there was a time in my life when I felt my weak mind floating away from me. I felt as if I was going insane, but I've never talked about that online, nor will I. That was the darkest time in my life, which considering how pointless my life is, isn't saying much.

  How much responsibility? How can you "take responsibility" for things completely out of your control?

  Enough responsibility to acknowledge the crime and her part in it. By your logic then, I suppose my father and one of his friends cannot be held responsible for raping me one night when I was 4 and they were high on some drug (at least I think so they sure acted like it, memories are somewhat fragmented of that little incident).

  Would it cause my father pain to acknowledge openly his crime? Undoubtedly. Which is one reason he, and the vast majority of sex offenders do not allow themselves to think of their victims. I submit to you that is cowardly, selfish and cruel. That Mark, is cruel.

  Do I want Andrea Yates to go on Oprah and tearfully confess? No.

  Do I want Andrea Yates to suffer? No.

  What I do want is for her to regain what is left of her sanity, have the courage to face her crime, acknowledge, own her responsibility and then learn to live with the hideousness of her actions. Part of that, for her, will be forgiving herself for what happened. For the record, I want the same from every other offender or criminal or murderer. I'm not picking on her.

  but on a real-life level, I really don't know

  Well, that suprises me given what you know about the human mind

  As with any other subject, what I know wouldn't fill a thimble. You, and 99% of the people on this board can double or triple stupid little brain. I've never claimed to be intelligent, quite the contrary I think on my best days I've got a mediocre mind. I tried to couch my posts without speaking in absolutes as I did not want to appear to be preachy or have all the answers. I was merely giving my opinion which is, I grant you, very little indeed.

  With all due respect, I think you are reading more into my posts on this subject than there is. I have admitted I have not followed this story, as it has been too much for me to read about. No doubt I'm a spineless wimp as well, eh?

  So since I've got nothing beneficial to offer, and God knows I'm already guilty of preaching again, I'll back on out of here and let the grownups talk.
• 

  free2beme

  I personally think they should have taken her out back and shot her, no mercy!