AlanF,once again,is in a battle of wits with an unarmed man,3rd Witness.AlanF has said more than once,the number 40 is symbolic.Does that not raise the question what does 40 symbolise,or what does the number 40 mean,in ancient eastern literature?..The Number 40 means:"Many,Many." There is no way to pinpoint an actual number,when the term "40" means:"Many,many"...3rd Witness you implyed you have an education in this area of expertise.Why do you not know the meaning of this simple term?Why would you not ask AlanF what it meant,if you did not know?Are you truely in search of Truth?Or,do you simply want to be right,regardless of facts,so generosly provided to you by the members of this board?...OUTLAW
For those not sick to death of talking about this...607 BCE
by Swamboozled 601 Replies latest watchtower bible
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jayhawk1
Outlaw, I hope you are not looking for answers from Thirdwitness. Thirdwitness does not do very well with direct questions.
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AuldSoul
AlanF: Nope. To deny this is to deny that Ezekiel's words had a literal fulfillment but allows for a figurative fulfillment. I've given you several possibilities for a figurative fulfillment. So have other posters. JW lurkers will again note how you completely ignore this. Your claim is just a continuance of your strawman arguments.
Alan,
Not to be overlooked is that the Watchtower Society itself gives a distinctly figurative fulfillment for the chapters in question. Therefore, thirdwitness "slam" directed toward us that "[we] have absolutely no basis for concluding that the 40 year desolation of Egypt was figurative...not Biblical anyway" is actually a slam at the Watchtower Society.
Respectfully,
AuldSoulthirdwitness,
I assure you, thirdwitness, your sharp disagreement with the Watchtower Society on this issue has not gone unnoticed by me. You must be an apostate, too. I read you all wrong, I thought you were a Watchtower apologist. I apologize for misreading your purpose here.
AuldSoul
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Leolaia
But you have absolutely no basis for concluding that the 40 year desolation of Egypt was figurative. Not Biblical anyway. You base it merely on the fact that Egypt did not record such a 40 year desolation. How surprising is that?
How very disingenuous is it for you to say that. I had taken the time and trouble to explain to you the difference between positive evidence and a negative absence of evidence, and showed you that there is much positive evidence that such a 40-year period is unhistorical. That is, postive evidence of continued occupation during that period. Moreover, I pointed out that negative evidence cuts both ways. Your argument that the Egyptians did not record a 40-year period of desolation due to embarassment about it totally ignores the fact that what would have been the greatest embarassment for the Egyptians would have been the greatest triumph for the Babylonians, so their silence is equally if not more weighty. Finally, I have pointed out that the fact that such an expectation or a warning was made by an OT prophet does not by itself prove that the foretold event did occur. The Bible in fact explains that Yahweh did not always bring these warned calamities but reserved the right to act as he saw fit, even if it meant that the prophecy goes "unfulfilled". So you cannot assume that the mere fact that a prophecy was made proves that the warned event also occurred.
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Leolaia
In a similar vein to the lesson in Jonah, consider also this:
"On occasion, I decree for some nation, for some kingdom, that I will tear up, knock down, destroy, but if this nation, against which I have pronounced sentence, abandons its wickedness, I then change my mind about the evil which I had intended to inflict on it . On another occassion, I decree for some nation, for some kingdom, that I will build up and plant, but if that nation does what displeases me, refusing to listen to my voice, I then change my mind about the good which I had intended to confer on it " (Jeremiah 18:7-10).
That is why these prophecies are rather more like warnings than predictions of the future. Jeremiah recognized that prophecy was conditional.
Similarly, in Ezekiel, Yahweh says: "Am I likely to take pleasure in the death of a wicked man, it is the Lord Yahweh who speaks, and not prefer to see him renounce his wickedness and live? ... I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, it is the Lord Yahweh who speaks. Repent and live!" (Ezekiel 18:23, 32).
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jgnat
I bet swamboozled had NO IDEA she would get such a spirited reply to such a simple question. Way to go newbie! Don't worry, it's not your cologne or magnetism or anything. Your question hit the board at the appropriate conjunction of the planets. A few people were ready to tackle the subject again. And I, for one, am pleased that AlanF came out of retirement to enter the fray.
If you want to talk to your relative about 607 BCE, swamboozled, I have found the simplest method is to bring out the Encyclopedia Brittanica. Most JW's will respect that reference at least, as the Watchtower will quote from it on occassion (with credit).
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peacefulpete
wonderful, Leolaia. Writers offering reason earlier prophecies had failed, God had changed his mind! Therefore evidently God has again changed his mind about any great world destruction, aka Armagedon.
BTW I tossed out a commen on your thread and pmed you.
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AlanF
You're quite right, AuldSoul. Thirdwitless is grossly disingenuous to castigate anyone for saying that certain of Ezekiel's prophecies were figurative, when the Watchtower Society itself interprets the "70 years Tyre will be forgotten" as figurative. And of course, both you and I have pointed out to thirdwitless that his own interpretation of those 70 years is precisely that "harboring of private ideas" that the Society defines as apostasy.
So what do you say, now, thirdwitless? Why do you harbor your private ideas about Tyre's 70 years, contravening what Jehovah's "faithful and discreet slave" has published as "true Christian doctrine"? Do you actually presume to stand up against "Jehovah's organization" and tell Jehovah, "you are wrong!"?
JW lurkers, take note -- thirdwitless will again fail to address the fact that he has, according to the Watchtower Society, committed apostasy against "Jehovah's organization".
AlanF
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Leolaia
There are other examples in the OT. For instance, outraged at the golden calf, Yahweh declared the following to Moses: "My wrath shall blaze out against them and devour them all. Of you, however, I will make a great nation" (Exodus 32:10). But Yahweh did not destroy all the Israelites and make Moses the father of a new nation. Thus the text says: "Yahweh relented and did not bring on his people the disaster he had threatened" (v. 14). As Psalm 78:38 comments on this: "Compassionately, however, he forgave their guilt instead of killing them, repeatedly repressing his anger instead of rousing his full wrath".
In Exodus, the Levites are declared by Yahweh to be high priests in "a lasting ordinance" (28:43), but this was later rescinded: "Yahweh the God of Israel speaks: 'I did indeed say, "As for your house and the house of your forefather, they will walk before me forever." But now however -- it is Yahweh who speaks -- This is unthinkable on my part. For those who honor me I honor in turn, and those who despise me are esteemed as nothing. So, days are coming when I will break your strength and the strength of the house of your forefather, until there is not one old man left in your house' " (1 Samuel 2:30-31).
In another example, the prophet Elijah declared to Ahab: "For your double dealing, and since you have done what is displeasing to Yahweh, I will now bring disaster down on you. I will sweep away your descendents, and wipe out every male belonging to the family of Ahab" (1 Kings 21:20-21). This was stated as an absolute prophecy. And yet this did not happen. Ahab repented and Yahweh declared: "Since he has humbled himself before me, I will not bring the disaster in his days" (v. 29), delaying the fulfillment for at least twelve more years. Similarly, the prophet Isaiah told King Hezekiah that his illness was terminal: "Yahweh says this, 'Put your affairs in order, for you are going to die, you will not survive" (2 Kings 20:1). Yet when Hezekiah showed his faith in God, Yahweh replaced this prophecy with a promise that Hezekiah would be cured and fifteen years would be added to his life (v. 6).
A final example is the prophecy in Micah 3:12 which states: "Zion will become ploughland, Jerusalem a heap of rubble, and the mountain of the Temple a wooded height". The prophet Jeremiah then quoted this oracle in Jeremiah 26:18 and noted that "Hezekiah king of Judah and all of Judah," fearing Yahweh, repented of their sins and thus "made him relent and not bring the disaster on them which he had pronounced against them" (v. 19).
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Leolaia
So in other words, thirdwitness is giving us a false dilemma in telling us that those who acknowledge that the prophesied 40-year destruction of Egypt did not historically occur in the 6th century BC choose to "disbelieve Jehovah or the Bible". The Bible itself tells us repeatedly that Jehovah reserves the right to not bring about the disaster or blessing that is prophesied.