The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness 1380 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • AuldSoul
    AuldSoul
    Fisherman: How do you know that when I said Bible I was not refering only to the many verses about the kingdom in the context of our discussion?

    If you have not investigated on your own what these verses say then you have not done diligent independent bible study on the subject of authority and rulership. Obviously my comments about your lack of studiousness where the Bible is concerned was in the context of this topic and the discussion at hand. If there was a single verse I posted that you had not considered from the standpoint of the relevance to authority and rulership then you have not studied this subject from the Bible.

    I am not saying you haven't read the Bible. I am saying you haven't studied it. You even insinuated you thought it would be a futile exercise.

    You still haven't answered a single one of the questions I have asked about the Scriptures I cited.

    Respectfully,
    AuldSoul

  • AuldSoul
    AuldSoul
    You claim that you came to your conclusions specially on the kingdom on your own without any influence but not so with other parts of the Bible. But you were already influenced when you considered the kingdom because you admit that you had help with other parts.

    Please stop repeating this untruth. That is not what I claimed. I claimed that I started out exactly as I encouraged you to start out. My OPINIONS are formed from all sorts of influences. I started by setting those out on PAPER so my mind wouldn't do a Gestalt trick on me and bend to fill in the gaps or selectively adjust the opinions later.

    I did not set out to prove or disprove my opinions or anyone else's opinions. I set out to test MY opinions against what the Bible SAID. My opinions were horribly off-base according to what the Bible SAID. I was WAY wrong. Along the way, I learned tons about what the Bible says on the subject of authority and rulership. And I learned tons about how very wrong the WTS is.

    I have no idea what you are talking about regarding admission of help with other parts as it pertains to this discussion. You'll need to pretend I can't read your mind this time and flesh out that statement if you want me to understand what you wrote.

    Respectfully,
    AuldSoul

  • Fisherman
    Fisherman

    I undersatnd what you mean AS about letting the Bible interpret itself but I still think that it is important to consider what experts say about what is the meaning. Can everyone be right? Is jesus God Almighty or not either he is or he isnt. REad the Bible on this subject. Some people say he is some people say he isnt. I have concluded that Jesus is not Almighty God but I respect the views of others who say that they have read the Bible with the aid of the Holy spirit and believe that I am wrong. They tell me to read the Bible without any influence on the subject and I will see it their way then I say you read the Bible in prayer and seek for God's help. They say I read the Bible, I prayed to God I still believe jesus is God. I say always when I read the Bible I pray for God's help to understand the meaning and I did that as you suggested and I still believe that Jesus is God as if God was helping him all along and not me.

    THis discussion diverts attention from the main issue which is 1st century kingdom.

  • Fisherman
    Fisherman

    AS

    First I never want you to think that I am being sarcastic or disrespectful to your view or comments.

    I am not an advocate or a defender on this post only a reseacher. Interestingly you say nothing about the teaching of 2 kingdoms that Jesus is supposed to rule over according to wts doctrine that COJ highlights in his book. That is what doesnt make sense to me in wts doctrine. Did you mention that?

    There are many things in the book of REv that cannot be seen but only with the mental eye. Satan's eviction from heaven cannot be seen and other things. So your argument that the child does not mean the birth of God's kingdom because it cannot be seen does not make sense.

  • jwfacts
    jwfacts

    3W,

    I can not believe you would bring up the earthquakes argument. This is one of the first things to wake me up to the complete lack of intellectual integrity that the WTS has. This is one area that the Watchtower have LIED about in that is statistically easy to prove. I recommend you read http://jwfacts.com/index_files/earthquakes.htm

    Here are the facts;

    • There are no more earthquakes since 1914, they have been consistent for 1000's years.
    • In the decades prior to 1914 the number of deaths by earthquakes each year was more than the decades after 1914
    • The largest earthquake was prior to 1914
    • The most destructive earthquake was prior to 1914
    • The century with the most deaths from earthquakes was the 1200's

    With global charities and advances in medicine and machinery and building techniques the pain and suffering from earthquakes is rectified far more quickly than in the past.

  • Fisherman
    Fisherman

    I want to bring to your attention to what you say I did and did not do. I also want bring attention to what you say I meant. You conclude that I seem to indicate that reading the Bible is futile, again you are forming many opinions. I am not going to say what you meant when you posted the statement about reading the subject in the Bible as you say you did.

    I said that it is not possible to read the bible as you say. You say that I am saying that it is because it is futile. Is it not possible that I am saying this because I have done it? You do not know what I have done or do you?

  • Fisherman
    Fisherman

    AS

    I never used techonological advances in support of 1914. I only posted schepticism about the date. I never supported that date in my posts.

    You are not the only one that reads the Bible and prays for God's help. Going to sleep. WE will talk more. I have an open mind.

  • AuldSoul
    AuldSoul

    Fisherman,

    I apologize. You are correct about your not supporting 1914 with the advent of technology. That was Flash. Wires got crossed in the wee mornin' hours.

    You conclude that I seem to indicate that reading the Bible is futile...

    I concluded that you indicate studying the Bible is futile. What you referred to yourself doing was reading, not studying. But you said it was studying. It isn't. That is my point, you haven't studied the Bible, you have read it and deduced from reading it that studying it is futile without the opinions of others.

    Everyone whose opinion is based on the Bible arrived at their opinion much the way I described. If there opinion is based on things apart from the Bible then, to that extent, their opinion is not Scriptural.

    I said that it is not possible to read the bible as you say. You say that I am saying that it is because it is futile. Is it not possible that I am saying this because I have done it? You do not know what I have done or do you?

    Even if you have tested reading the Bible you have not tested studying it. Despite what JWs teach, reading is not the same as studying. I feel like I am flashing back to conversations I had 6 years ago with my old friend C. Woznick, a Bethelite.

    Respectfully,
    AuldSoul

  • AuldSoul
    AuldSoul

    Fisherman,

    Interestingly you say nothing about the teaching of 2 kingdoms that Jesus is supposed to rule over according to wts doctrine that COJ highlights in his book. That is what doesnt make sense to me in wts doctrine. Did you mention that?

    Yes. I did mention that. And I have no idea what COJ has to say about anything, I haven't read any of his books.

    Revelation 1:6 6 and he made us to be a kingdom, priests to his God and Father—yes, to him be the glory and the might forever. Amen.

    This does not say "made us to be kings." It says "made us to be a kingdom." You already know that a kingdom is not made up of kings. It is made up of subjects or land ruled over by a king. Which, again, reinforces the point that John believed himself to be a subject ruled over by Jesus in the First Century, and that he believed the seven congragtion in Asia were also being ruled over.

    I encourage you to study the Bible for yourself, for what it says, instead of carefully considering the biased leanings of others. This is NOT reading of the Bible, but I understand your confusion on this point. The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society uses "study" and "read" almost interchangably, changing the meaning of the language to keep the people in line.

    From Merriam-Webster:

    Main Entry: study
    Function: noun
    Inflected Form(s): plural stud·ies
    1 : a state of contemplation : REVERIE
    2 a : application of the mental faculties to the acquisition of knowledge <years of study> b : such application in a particular field or to a specific subject <the study of Latin> c : careful or extended consideration <the proposal is under study> d (1) : a careful examination or analysis of a phenomenon, development, or question (2) : the published report of such a study
    3 : a building or room devoted to study or literary pursuits
    4 : PURPOSE, INTENT <it has been the study of my life to avoid those weaknesses -- Jane Austen>
    5 a : a branch or department of learning : SUBJECT -- often used in plural <American studies> b : the activity or work of a student <returning to her studies after vacation> c : an object of study or deliberation <every gesture a careful study -- Marcia Davenport> d : something attracting close attention or examination
    6 : a person who learns or memorizes something (as a part in a play) -- usually used with a qualifying adjective <he's a quick study>
    7 : a literary or artistic production intended as a preliminary outline, an experimental interpretation, or an exploratory analysis of specific features or characteristics
    8 : a musical composition for the practice of a point of technique
    Main Entry: study
    Function: verb
    Inflected Form(s): stud·ied; study·ing
    intransitive verb 1 a : to engage in study b : to undertake formal study of a subject
    2 dialect : MEDITATE, REFLECT
    3 : ENDEAVOR, TRY
    transitive verb
    1 : to read in detail especially with the intention of learning
    2 : to engage in the study of <study biology>
    3 : PLOT, DESIGN
    4 : to consider attentively or in detail <studying his face for a reaction>
    synonym see CONSIDER

    Read, on the other hand, carries the connotation of cursory examination. The taking in of ideas by interpreting symbols into language. Study involves much more than simply reading.

    In study one has a specific objective in mind and they set about achieving that objective. They want to learn about [fill in the blank] and they systematically approach that task. There is nothing lackadaisical about study. It is a very active, mentally engaging process. From your description of what you have done, I am not assuming you haven't studied the Bible on this issue. You said you haven't studied the Bible on this issue.

    Fisherman: I say always when I read the Bible I pray for God's help to understand the meaning and I did that as you suggested and I still believe that Jesus is God as if God was helping him all along and not me.

    This is not what I recommended at all. Please clear your mind of JW-isms and any other "isms" you might have clogging the works and then read what I posted earlier:

    AuldSoul: I recommend that you write down what you believe about rulership and authority. In separate columns. Get your opinion on the understanding of those two concepts well in mind. Then read the Christian Greek Scriptures without using any Watchtower Society literature or apostate literature. Make note of every instance that discusses rulership or authority and study out what the verses have to say.

    Four action verbs. Write, your opinion. This is the part that can be crammed chock full of any influences you like. Read, the New Testament. This is not purposeless or aimless reading, you are searching for something specific (reference to the ideas of rulership and authority) and you are paying careful attention to watch for instances of it. Note, the places in the Bible that address these concepts. Finally, study out each instance you located.

    You have not done what I recommended until you have accomplished this. You stated you did something other than this, so you haven't ever tried what I recommended. What I recommend is study. What you have done is reading. It is not the same thing. You need to retrain your brain on the meaning of the language used, because they have been just as successful in changing your concepts as they were at one time with me.

    Respectfully,
    AuldSoul

  • ozziepost
    ozziepost

    NOTICE:

    PMJ2:
    Account PMJ has now been removed since posters are not allowed to have duplicate accounts.

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