Why Luke 17 Proves that Parousia Must Be Translated as Presence in Matthew 24:3
This is a continuation from my previous post # 4717 on page 52 of this thread.
Beginning of Part II
thirdwitless said:
: And just in case you missed it here is
:The final nail in the coffin of AlanF's and other opposition to JWs interpretation of parousia.
: Luke 17 offers a parallel of Matthew 24. An examination of it will reveal the true meaning of parousia.
Before I begin dismantling thirdwitless' claims, I need to establish some groundwork. Note that my treatment here is of necessity brief, as it would take a large book to give a comprehensive treatment.
A comparison of the parallel accounts in Matthew, Mark and Luke, and related passages in the rest of the New Testament, shows that whenever the word parousia was used in a theological context, it was virtually synonymous with "coming" or "arrival" or "appearing", as in "Second Coming". Many commentators in the 19th and 20th centuries have arrived at this conclusion, and some have even written extensive books about parousia. What are their arguments?
A simple comparison of the accounts related to Christ's coming demonstrates that parousia is used virtually interchangeably with the Greek words for "revelation" (apokalupsis), "manifestation" (epiphaneia), and "coming" (eleusis).
1 Thessalonians 4:15: 15 For this is what we tell you by the word of the Lord, that we the living who survive to the coming [parousia] of the Lord shall in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death.
2 Thessalonians 2:1: However, brothers, respecting the coming [parousia] of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him.
2 Timothy 4:8: From this time on there is reserved for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will give me as a reward in that day, yet not only to me, but also to all those who have loved his manifestation [epiphaneia].
Most of Paul's writings dealing with parousia occur in the context of the end-times judgment. For example, compare these two passages:
1 Thessalonians 1:10: and to wait for his Son from the heavens, whom he raised up from the dead, namely, Jesus, who delivers us from the wrath which is coming.
1 Thessalonians 2:19: For what is our hope or joy or crown of exultation -- why, is it not in fact you? -- before our Lord Jesus at his coming [parousia]?
Now compare several more passages:
1 Thessalonians 3:13: to the end that he may make your hearts firm, unblamable in holiness before our God and Father at the coming [parousia] of our Lord Jesus with all his holy ones.
1 Thessalonians 5:1-11, 23: Now as for the times and the seasons, brothers, you need nothing to be written to you. 2 For you yourselves know quite well that the Lord’s day is coming exactly as a thief in the night. 3 Whenever it is that they are saying: "Peace and security!" then sudden destruction is to be instantly upon them just as the pang of distress upon a pregnant woman; and they will by no means escape. 4 But you, brothers, you are not in darkness, so that that day should overtake you as it would thieves, 5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We belong neither to night nor to darkness. 6 So, then, let us not sleep on as the rest do, but let us stay awake and keep our senses. 7 For those who sleep are accustomed to sleep at night, and those who get drunk are usually drunk at night. 8 But as for us who belong to the day, let us keep our senses and have on the breastplate of faith and love and as a helmet the hope of salvation; 9 because God assigned us, not to wrath, but to the acquiring of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10 He died for us, that, whether we stay awake or are asleep, we should live together with him. 11 Therefore keep comforting one another and building one another up, just as you are in fact doing. . . May the very God of peace sanctify you completely. And sound in every respect may the spirit and soul and body of you be preserved in a blameless manner at the coming [parousia] of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Judgment is associated with the tradition of the day of the Lord, and it incorporates the imagery of the Lord's mighty coming. In fact, Paul uses the terms parousia and "day of the Lord" in juxtaposition:
1 Thessalonians 4:15: For this is what we tell you by the word of the Lord, that we the living who survive to the coming [parousia] of the Lord shall in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death.
1 Thessalonians 5:2: For you yourselves know quite well that the Lord’s day is coming [erkhetai] exactly as a thief in the night.
In two other passages, Paul seems to join the two images:
1 Corinthians 4:1-5: Let a man so appraise us as being subordinates of Christ and stewards of sacred secrets of God. 2 Besides, in this case, what is looked for in stewards is for a man to be found faithful. 3 Now to me it is a very trivial matter that I should be examined by you or by a human tribunal. Even I do not examine myself. 4 For I am not conscious of anything against myself. Yet by this I am not proved righteous, but he that examines me is the Lord. 5 Hence do not judge anything before the due time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring the secret things of darkness to light and make the counsels of the hearts manifest, and then each one will have his praise come to him from God.
Romans 13:11-12) 11 Do this, too, because you people know the season, that it is already the hour for you to awake from sleep, for now our salvation is nearer than at the time when we became believers. 12 The night is well along; the day has drawn near.
That parousia and "day of the Lord" are interchangeable in the Gospels is evident from these parallel passages:
Matthew 24:27, 37, 39: For just as the lightning comes out of eastern parts and shines over to western parts, so the coming [parousia] of the Son of man will be. . . For just as the days of Noah were, so the coming [parousia] of the Son of man will be. . . and they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away, so the coming [parousia] of the Son of man will be.
Luke 17:24, 26, 30: For even as the lightning, by its flashing, shines from one part under heaven to another part under heaven, so the Son of man will be. . . Moreover, just as it occurred in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days [hemera] of the Son of man. . . The same way it will be on that day [hemera] when the Son of man is to be revealed [apokalupsis].
In these passages, Matthew employs phrases like parousia tou huiou tou anthrwpou (coming of-the Son of-the man), while Luke uses phrases like hemera tou huiou tou anthrwpou (day of-the Son of-the man). It is clear that these passages equate coming [parousia] and revealing [apokalupsis].
The 5th-6th century Codex Bezae contains large portions of the New Testament, and it contains a variant reading of Luke 21:7 that indicates that native Greek speakers back then viewed parousia and eleusis as virtually interchangeable. Let's consider this passage in comparison with Matthew 24:3:
Luke 21:7, Standard Text:
Didaskale, pote oun tauta estai, kai ti to semeion hotan melle tauta ginesthai
Teacher, when therefore these-(things) will-be, and what the sign whenver may-be-about these-(things) to-be-occurring?
Luke 21:7, Codex Bezae:
Didaskale, pote tauta estai, kai ti to semeion tes ses eleusews
Teacher, when these-(things) will-be, and what the sign of-the your coming?
Matthew 24:3, Standard text:
Eimon hemin pote tauta estai, kai ti to semeion tes ses parousias kai sunteleias tou aiwnos.
Say to-us when these-(things) will-be, and what the sign of-the your coming and of-conclusion of-the age.
Clearly, Codex Bezae equates eleusis with parousia by comparing Luke 21:7 with Matthew 24:3, and it rolls these two texts into the standard text of Luke 21:7.
Yet another comparison of three important passages proves that "presence" in Matthew 24:3 is impossible. These passages are:
Revelation 10:7: In the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet.Mark 13:4: Tell us, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are all about to be fulfilled?Luke 21:7: "Teacher," they asked, "when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are about to take place?"
The latter two passages are parallel to Matthew 24:3. Since it is obvious that all three are describing the same event, they must mean the same thing. A correct rendering of parousia results in consistent meaning:
Matthew 24:3: Tell us, When will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the conclusion of the system of things?
But the NWT's rendering with "presence" is inconsistent:
Matthew 24:3: Tell us, When will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?
The reason for the inconsistency is as follows: The question "when will these things happen?" is common to all three passages. Mark 13:4 and Luke 21:7 then pose the question, "what will be the sign that all these things are about to happen?" Applying this understanding to Matthew 24:3 immediately allows us to rephrase the 2nd question in the NWT: "what will be the sign that your presence and the conclusion of the system of things are about to take place?" But his means that the "sign" must occur in advance of the "presence" -- and this contradicts the Watchtower Society's doctrine that this "presence" began in 1914 and that the "sign" takes place beginning in 1914 and ending at "the great tribulation", whenever that might be. But the proper understanding, that Christ's coming has nothing to do with 1914, results in complete consistency: "what will be the sign that your coming and the conclusion of the system of things are about to take place?"
Naturally, I don't expect that thirdwitless will even understand the above points, much less attempt to debunk them.
With the above background in place, let's go on to debunk thirdwitless' claims about the meaning of Luke 17, 21, Mark 13 and Matthew 24.
First, let's look at the full text of Luke 17:20-35:
Luke 17:20-24: 20 "But on being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God was coming, he answered them and said: "The kingdom of God is not coming with striking observableness, 21 neither will people be saying, ‘See here!’ or, ‘There!’ For, look! the kingdom of God is in your midst." 22 Then he said to the disciples: "Days will come when you will desire to see one of the days of the Son of man but you will not see it. 23 And people will say to you, ‘See there!’ or, ‘See here!’ Do not go out or chase after them. 24 For even as the lightning, by its flashing, shines from one part under heaven to another part under heaven, so the Son of man will be."
So at first, everything having to do with the kingdom of God would be unnoticed by everyone -- even by the disciples -- but when the Son of man finally came, it would be as noticeable as lightning which strikes without warning and can be visible in the entire sky. This theme of the coming of the Son of man being without warning and coming in the midst of unknowing people is then emphasized:
Luke 17:25-30: 25 "First, however, he must undergo many sufferings and be rejected by this generation. 26 Moreover, just as it occurred in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of man: 27 they were eating, they were drinking, men were marrying, women were being given in marriage, until that day when Noah entered into the ark, and the flood arrived and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise, just as it occurred in the days of Lot: they were eating, they were drinking, they were buying, they were selling, they were planting, they were building. 29 But on the day that Lot came out of Sodom it rained fire and sulphur from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 The same way it will be on that day when the Son of man is to be revealed."
So here we have three parallels: the days of the Son of man, the days of Noah and the days of Lot. In the days of Lot, there was no preaching, no message of a coming destruction, and everyone who was about to be destroyed had no inkling of what was about to come. At the end of these days, destruction came suddenly, without warning. The same with the days of Noah. Although Noah is called "a preacher of righteousness", there is no indication that in the days before the Flood he covered the entire world with a warning message. The passage is clear that this did not happen, because people were just going about their everyday lives. When the Flood came, it was suddenly and without warning. So it was to be in the days before the Son of man arrived. When he arrived, it would be suddenly and without warning.
Luke 17:31-35: 31 "On that day let the person that is on the housetop but whose movable things are in the house not come down to pick these up, and the person out in the field, let him likewise not return to the things behind. 32 Remember the wife of Lot. 33 Whoever seeks to keep his soul safe for himself will lose it, but whoever loses it will preserve it alive. 34 I tell you, In that night two will be in one bed; the one will be taken along, but the other will be abandoned. 35 There will be two grinding at the same mill; the one will be taken along, but the other will be abandoned."
Once again, the coming of the Son of man is described as extremely sudden, without warning.
Now let's look at the somewhat parallel passage in Luke 21:20-36:
Luke 21:20-24: 20 "Furthermore, when you see Jerusalem surrounded by encamped armies, then know that the desolating of her has drawn near. 21 Then let those in Judea begin fleeing to the mountains, and let those in the midst of her withdraw, and let those in the country places not enter into her; 22 because these are days for meting out justice, that all the things written may be fulfilled. 23 Woe to the pregnant women and the ones suckling a baby in those days! For there will be great necessity upon the land and wrath on this people; 24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled."
This passage ends with the destruction wrought by the coming of the Son of man upon Jerusalem. It is largely parallel to Luke 17:31-35.
Luke 21:25-27: 25 "Also, there will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth anguish of nations, not knowing the way out because of the roaring of the sea and its agitation, 26 while men become faint out of fear and expectation of the things coming upon the inhabited earth; for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27 And then they will see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory."
This is Luke's description of the "sign" that the disciples asked about in Luke 21:7.
Luke 21:28-31: 28 "But as these things start to occur, raise yourselves erect and lift your heads up, because your deliverance is getting near." 29 With that he spoke an illustration to them: "Note the fig tree and all the other trees: 30 When they are already in the bud, by observing it you know for yourselves that now the summer is near. 31 In this way you also, when you see these things occurring, know that the kingdom of God is near."
Note that the illustration does not say that these signs show that the coming of the Son of man is near -- because that already occurred in verse 27 -- but that the kingdom of God is near.
Luke 21:32: 32 "Truly I say to you, This generation will by no means pass away until all things occur."
Obviously talking to the generation of people who actually heard Jesus speak. This clearly shows that all the things Jesus spoke about here would be fulfilled upon those people, and it was most certainly fulfilled when Jerusalem and the Jewish nation was destroyed in 70 A.D.
Luke 21:33-36: 33 "Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will by no means pass away. 34 "But pay attention to yourselves that your hearts never become weighed down with overeating and heavy drinking and anxieties of life, and suddenly that day be instantly upon you 35 as a snare. For it will come in upon all those dwelling upon the face of all the earth. 36 Keep awake, then, all the time making supplication that you may succeed in escaping all these things that are about [mellw] to occur, and in standing before the Son of man."
Once again, Jesus emphasizes the nearness of "all these things" with the expression "that are about to occur", and to watch out because "suddenly that day" could "be instantly upon yo as a snare".
Now let's look at Mark 13:14-37.
Mark 13:14-23: 14 "However, when you catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation standing where it ought not (let the reader use discernment), then let those in Judea begin fleeing to the mountains. 15 Let the man on the housetop not come down, nor go inside to take anything out of his house; 16 and let the man in the field not return to the things behind to pick up his outer garment. 17 Woe to the pregnant women and those suckling a baby in those days! 18 Keep praying that it may not occur in wintertime; 19 for those days will be days of a tribulation such as has not occurred from the beginning of the creation which God created until that time, and will not occur again. 20 In fact, unless the Lord had cut short the days, no flesh would be saved. But on account of the chosen ones whom he has chosen he has cut short the days. 21 "Then, too, if anyone says to you, ‘See! Here is the Christ,’ ‘See! There he is,’ do not believe it. 22 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will give signs and wonders to lead astray, if possible, the chosen ones. 23 You, then, watch out; I have told you all things beforehand."
This passage is largely parallel to Luke 17:22-24, 31-35; 21:20-24.
Mark 13:24-26: 24 "But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, 25 and the stars will be falling out of heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken. 26 And then they will see the Son of man coming in clouds with great power and glory."
This passage is largely a parallel with Luke 21:25-27.
Mark 13:27-29: 27 "And then he will send forth the angels and will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from earth’s extremity to heaven’s extremity. 28 "Now from the fig tree learn the illustration: Just as soon as its young branch grows tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near. 29 Likewise also you, when you see these things happening, know that he is near, at the doors."
Parallel with Luke 21:28-31.
Mark 13:30: "Truly I say to you that this generation will by no means pass away until all these things happen."
Parallel with Luke 21:32.
Mark 13:31-37: 31 "Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away. 32 Concerning that day or the hour nobody knows, neither the angels in heaven nor the Son, but the Father. 33 Keep looking, keep awake, for you do not know when the appointed time is. 34 It is like a man traveling abroad that left his house and gave the authority to his slaves, to each one his work, and commanded the doorkeeper to keep on the watch. 35 Therefore keep on the watch, for you do not know when the master of the house is coming, whether late in the day or at midnight or at cockcrowing or early in the morning; 36 in order that when he arrives suddenly, he does not find you sleeping. 37 But what I say to you I say to all, Keep on the watch."
Again largely parallel to Luke 21:33-36. Here again, the emphasis is on the suddenness of the coming of the Son of man, that no one other than the Father knows the day or the hour, the appointed time, and so Christians should always "keep on the watch".
Finally, let's consider the parallel account in Matthew:15-51.
Matthew 24:15-51: "Therefore, when you catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place, (let the reader use discernment,) 16 then let those in Judea begin fleeing to the mountains. 17 Let the man on the housetop not come down to take the goods out of his house; 18 and let the man in the field not return to the house to pick up his outer garment. 19 Woe to the pregnant women and those suckling a baby in those days! 20 Keep praying that your flight may not occur in wintertime, nor on the sabbath day; 21 for then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again. 22 In fact, unless those days were cut short, no flesh would be saved; but on account of the chosen ones those days will be cut short. 23 "Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look! Here is the Christ,’ or, ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will give great signs and wonders so as to mislead, if possible, even the chosen ones. 25 Look! I have forewarned you. 26 Therefore, if people say to you, ‘Look! He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out; ‘Look! He is in the inner chambers,’ do not believe it. 27 For just as the lightning comes out of eastern parts and shines over to western parts, so the coming [parousia] of the Son of man will be. 28 Wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together."
The parallels with Luke and Mark are obvious. Note that verse 27 is quite clear that the parousia of the Son of man would be extremely visible, which thoroughly disproves a claim of an "invisible parousia".
Matthew then describes "the sign" that the disciples asked about in Matthew 24:3:
Matthew 24:29-31: 29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in lamentation, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send forth his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity."
Again the parallels to Luke and Mark are obvious.
Matthew 24:32-35: 32 "Now learn from the fig tree as an illustration this point: Just as soon as its young branch grows tender and it puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 Likewise also you, when you see all these things, know that he is near at the doors. 34 Truly I say to you that this generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will by no means pass away."
Obvious parallels again.
Now we come to the passage in question that thirdwitless claims is a serious problem for normal Christian understanding of the Gospel accounts. This is the paralled to Luke 17:25-30:
Matthew 24:36-39: 36 "Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 For just as the days of Noah were, so the coming [parousia] of the Son of man will be. 38 For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark; 39 and they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away, so the coming [parousia] of the Son of man will be."
Since thirdwitless will have largely forgotten what I wrote a few paragraphs above about the proper understanding of Luke 17:25-30 in context, let me repeat:
So here we have three parallels: the days of the Son of man, the days of Noah and the days of Lot. In the days of Lot, there was no preaching, no message of a coming destruction, and everyone who was about to be destroyed had no inkling of what was about to come. At the end of these days, destruction came suddenly, without warning. The same with the days of Noah. Although Noah is called "a preacher of righteousness", there is no indication that in the days before the Flood he covered the entire world with a warning message. The passage is clear that this did not happen, because people were just going about their everyday lives. When the Flood came, it was suddenly and without warning. So it was to be in the days before the Son of man arrived. When he arrived, it would be suddenly and without warning.
Note again that when parousia is improperly translated as "presence", the passage is rendered difficult to understand in the overall context of Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 17, 21.
Matthew 24:40-44: 40 "Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken along and the other be abandoned; 41 two women will be grinding at the hand mill: one will be taken along and the other be abandoned. 42 Keep on the watch, therefore, because you do not know on what day your Lord is coming. 43 But know one thing, that if the householder had known in what watch the thief was coming, he would have kept awake and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 On this account you too prove yourselves ready, because at an hour that you do not think to be it, the Son of man is coming [erchetai].
Again the parallels with Mark and Luke are obvious. Note clearly that Matthew uses erkhetai for "coming", so this word construction is parallel to his use of parousia for "coming" elsewhere.
Incidentally, a proper understanding of these passages shows that the Watchtower Society's so-called "faithful and discreet slave" doctrine is bogus. Note the passage:
Matthew 24:45-51: 45 "Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time? 46 Happy is that slave if his master on arriving finds him doing so. 47 Truly I say to you, He will appoint him over all his belongings. 48 But if ever that evil slave should say in his heart, ‘My master is delaying,’ 49 and should start to beat his fellow slaves and should eat and drink with the confirmed drunkards, 50 the master of that slave will come on a day that he does not expect and in an hour that he does not know, 51 and will punish him with the greatest severity and will assign him his part with the hypocrites. There is where his weeping and the gnashing of his teeth will be."
This is clearly a simple parable that shows that each Christian must be completely faithful to the Master. There is nothing more to it than that.
In terms of current Watchtower doctrine, its interpretation is easy to disprove as well. The Society admits that all of the events described in Matthew 24:40-44 have not yet taken place. It also admits that the events described in Matthew 24:48-51 have not yet taken place. How then, can the parable of Matthew 24:45-47 be sandwiched in between these, and claimed to have occurred in 1919? The answer is painfully obvious: the Society's claims are bogus.
In view of the above, let's go on to thirdwitless' specific claims:
: Luke 17:26 Moreover, just as it occurred in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of man: 27 they were eating, they were drinking, men were marrying, women were being given in marriage, until that day when Noah entered into the ark, and the flood arrived and destroyed them all.
: Note that 'the days of Noah' = 'the days of the Son of man'.
Right, but you've ignored that 'the days of Lot' = 'the days of the Son of man'. You've also neglected the obvious fact that the whole point of these passages is not to equate these periods, but to show the unexpectedness and suddenness of the events that came at the end of these periods.
: The days of Noah was a time when people were carrying on the everyday affairs of life and took no note of their impending destruction. They took no note of what Noah was saying and doing.
You've again ignored the extremely important fact that Noah could not possibly have preached about a coming Flood to the entire world. We know that the very same science that establishes that Exodus 20:11; 31:17 and Genesis 1:1-5 cannot mean that the universe was created in six literal days -- otherwise you should just chuck the Bible -- also establishes that mankind has been living on all continents but Antarctica for tens of thousands of years. The Aborigines reached Australia some 40,000 years ago. If mankind was as fecund as the Bible indicates in pre-Flood days, then the entire world must have been populated. It is physically impossible for a single family like Noah's to do this preaching, especially in the mere 120 years you claim below. Obviously, something is very wrong with the JW view of the history of mankind.
: How long were the days of Noah when men were taking no note until the flood came? According to Genesis 6:3 Jehovah says of wicked mankind in the days of Noah: "... his days shall amount to a hundred and twenty years." So the days of Noah before the flood, specified by Jehovah, when men were taking no note of Jehovah was at the very least 120 years. Quite an extended period of time.
Nowhere near long enough to preach to an entire world.
And how about the days of Lot? What preaching was done then? Remember that it is YOU who are claiming parallels here, so you have to prove your claims.
: Enter Matthew 24:37: For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 38 For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark; 39 and they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be.
: Lets compare this scripture to Luke 17:26,27.
: Luke: Moreover, just as it occurred in the days of Noah, : Matt: For just as the days of Noah were
: Luke:so it will be also in the days of the Son of man: : Matt:so the presence of the Son of man will be.
: Luke: 27 they were eating, they were drinking, men were marrying, women were being given in marriage, : Matt: For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and : women being given in marriage,
: Luke: until that day when Noah entered into the ark, and the flood arrived and destroyed them all. : Matt: 39 and they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away,
All of these passages are completely understandable in the normal Christian way when the complete passages and context are considered, as I've shown above.
: The sentences are virtually the same, almost identical with one notable exception. Luke says 'the days of the Son of man' but Matthew says 'presence of the Son of man'. What can we surmise from this?
We can surmise that "presence" is a wrong translation.
: The 'days of the Son of man' = the 'presence of the Son of man'.
Not quite. Your claim is incomplete. See above.
: And both equal the days of Noah when people were living their everyday life taking no note of what Jehovah's servants were doing and saying. Then the flood came and swept them all away. A time period that lasted over 100 years.
Again you've missed the fact that the point of these passages had to do with the suddenness and unexpectedness of the coming of the Son of man or the coming of the Flood or the coming of the destruction upon Sodom and Gomorrah at the end of the days.
: The days or presence of the Son of man is not just paralleled by the period when the flood actually swept them all away. The days or parousia of Jesus is paralleled by the days of Noah before the flood also when they were taking no note of what was to come upon them.
This is nothing but an unsupported claim. Nor do any modern commentators agree with this view, except perhaps for Dispensationalists who believe in a "secret rapture".
: The days that someone is present involves not only their arrival but the period of days that they remain after their arrival.
Which is why the translation "presence" buggers one's understanding of Matthew, Mark, Luke and a host of other passages.
: Likewise today, for the most part people are living their everyday lives not taking any note of the days or presence of the Son of man and that Jesus is gathering his people into one ark or organization for survival of the impending destruction to be brought upon this wicked system.
This is a completely circular argument: "We know that Christ's presence began in 1914, and we take note of it, so others must not be taking note of it."
You forget that another, far more reasonable explanation that people take no note of JW doctrine is that it flies in the face of the facts. You forget that absolutely nothing observable that C. T. Russell predicted came to pass. He expected that 1914 would bring Armageddon, and when that didn't happen, he changed his prediction to one where Armageddon was to come in 1918. He died expecting that. Very soon, his successors under J. F. Rutherford predicted that Armageddon would come in 1920, then 1925, and so forth. The "Millions Campaign" that was launched by a small lecture in 1918 completely failed. Russell's doctrine that the parousia came invisibly in 1874 was abandoned in 1931 and changed to 1914, along with a host of other changes demanded by the facts. Doctrine was transformed, not by better understanding of the Scriptures, but by necessity.
An interesting comment on this transformation is made by Carl Sagan in Broca's Brain, pages 332-333:
Doctrines that make no predictions are less compelling than those which make correct predictions; they are in turn more successful than doctrines that make false predictions.But not always. One prominent American religion confidently predicted that the world would end in 1914. Well, 1914 has come and gone, and -- while the events of that year were certainly of some importance -- the world does not, at least so far as I can see, seem to have ended. There are at least three responses that an organized religion can make in the face of such a failed and fundamental prophecy. They could have said, "Oh, did we say `1914'? So sorry, we meant `2014.' A slight error in calculation. Hope you weren't inconvenienced in any way." But they did not. They could have said, "Well, the world would have ended, except we prayed very hard and interceded with God so He spared the Earth." But they did not. Instead, they did something much more ingenious. They announced that the world had in fact ended in 1914, and if the rest of us hadn't noticed, that was our lookout. It is astonishing in the face of such transparent evasions that this religion has any adherents at all. But religions are tough. Either they make no contentions which are subject to disproof or they quickly redesign doctrine after disproof. The fact that religions can be so shamelessly dishonest, so contemptuous of the intelligence of their adherents, and still flourish does not speak very well for the tough-mindedness of the believers. But it does indicate, if a demonstration were needed, that near the core of the religious experience is something remarkably resistant to rational inquiry. [Carl Sagan, Broca's Brain, Ballantine Books, New York, 1982, p. 332]
: So in conclusion, this proves decisively that the presence or parousia or days of the Son of man is a specific extended time period that begins before the actual destruction of the wicked system when people are taking no note of God and his reigning King and what he is doing and taking no note of their impending destruction just like the days of Noah which lasted over 100 years.
You still have a lot more work to do. But readers know very well that you're going to ignore at least 95% of everything in this post and my preceeding post, just as you ignored 99% of everything in my extensive post on earthquakes and "the composite sign". But please do keep up the good work, because you're showing lurkers how stupid and uncomprehending Jehovah's Witnesses really are about factual information that shows their bogus beliefs.
: In view of this definitive and undeniable scriptural evidence,
LOL!
: parousia is no brief coming at the destruction of the wicked as many would have you believe. Not only that but parousia in Matthew 24 can accurately be translated by its root meaning presence and presence accurately depicts the entire meaning of parousia because the days or parousia of the Son of man covers many many years just as the days of Noah covered many many years.
Readers who might not have tackled your seemingly "definitive and undeniable scriptural evidence" can now see why such a declaration on your part is insane. If they couldn't disprove your silly claims before, they can now.
AlanF
