The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness 1380 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • thirdwitness
    thirdwitness

    The theme of AlanF's two last post seems to be: If you can't refute them dazzle them with longevity and scholarly words that are irrelevant to the subject.

    It is a nice long song and dance. You must be getting ready to try out for American Idol with that song and dance routine. If I were going to sing a song after that I think it would be:

    The Long and Winding post, thaaaat leads to nowhere.

    Will come from AlanF, I've heard it all before.

    Suggestion to AlanF: Try limiting your posts to one million words.

    Now I thought about writing a long drawn out essay about Sasquatch or BiG Foot and discuss whether he exists or not. Then after writing about a page of that I figured I could make the connection to the Bible and show how I had been in the woods many times before but never saw any sign of Big Foot's parousia. I thought that by doing this it would perhaps provide an answer for all of AlanF's irrelevancies.

    Anyway, another suggestion to AlanF: Please, Don't keep bringing up irrlevant things over and over again. Your are wasting your time and our time by having to read it.. which no one does. We just skim it because 90 percent of it is irrelevant.

    For example, AlanF again brings up parousia and its definition. I think it has been thoroughly shown and proven by you and me both that every scholar in the world from 1800 till now agrees that the primary definition of parousia is presence. And I think that you and I have also shown that the majority of the scholars agree that parousia can properly be translated presence at Matthew 24 or at least that it is not a gross error to translate parousia as presence. And I thank you for your help in showing everyone this fact.

    Let me give another example where AlanF is wasting his time researching and our time having to read it. Or really skim it. He brought up Josephus and said:

    However, the facts prove that the Society's citations of Josephus are a deliberate misrepresentation of the facts. The fact is that Josephus used parousia 32 times in his writings, out of which he used it to mean strictly "presence" 5 times, strictly "arrival" or "coming" or the like 9 times, and "arrival with subsequent presence" 18 times.

    Immediately I saw that in his opening statement he had just vindicated the WT publication by showing us that of the 32 times that Josephus used parousia or a similar word he used it to mean presence or arrival with subsequent presence 23 out of the 32 times. The WT indeed agrees that parousia is an arrival and subsequent presence. So it became unnecessary for me to read the page long quotes of Josephus and what he said since AlanF admitted from the beginning that Josephus supported the WT's view of parousia 23 out of 32 times. And for this I thank AlanF.

    Well, I will try to skim through his last post and see if there is anything relevant that has not been discussed before but I just don't really have time to discuss Sasquatch or the Lochness Monster or whether Pluto should be a planet or not or any such subjects as that.

    What I am saying is AlanF makes it very hard to read his post by including so much irrelevant information. It would really be appreciated if he could stick to the subject at hand rather than rehashing parousia etc etc etc. And thus he makes it very hard to find anything of substance in his mile long mostly irrelevant posts of scholarly words that don't say much but are just meant to dazzle us into thinking that he is the all wise and all knowing Guru of the DB.

  • thirdwitness
    thirdwitness

    And of course because I do not quote every word AlanF has said and go thru sentence by sentence and answer him phrase by phrase he claims, "You did not answer me. You cannot refute what I say."

    When something is said of substance and relevance I will be happy to refute it, just as has been done over and over again.

  • jayhawk1
    jayhawk1
    I had been in the woods many times before but never saw any sign of Big Foot's parousia.

    Would that be parousia as in presence or coming?

    Sorry, I couldn't resist the joke.

  • hillary_step
    hillary_step

    ThirdWitness,

    My God...the Beast lives.

    What I am saying is AlanF makes it very hard to read his post by including so much irrelevant information.

    While it took many words to say this, I for one am actually willing to read proof of your accusation. Can you note, point by point why this information is irrelevant?

    Without such information, it is rather like saying I have just read Shakespeare and I do not believe him.

    HS

  • AlanF
    AlanF


    I'm glad you posted your stupidity once again, thirdwitless. It just proves even more that cult-driven JWs are incapable of rational thinking. Facts bore you to death, because you're not interested in facts -- you're interested in bolstering your cult. Let me give a couple of examples of this, and how you continue to lie through your teeth.
    : For example, AlanF again brings up parousia and its definition. I think it has been thoroughly shown and proven by you and me both that every scholar in the world from 1800 till now agrees that the primary definition of parousia is presence.
    Wrong. They agree that the ancient root meaning is "presence". They also indicate that parousia has several different meanings, none of them primary. For example, Kittel's massive Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (TDNT) spends about 13 pages showing why parousia means "appearing" and so forth in most New Testament usage.
    : And I think that you and I have also shown that the majority of the scholars agree that parousia can properly be translated presence at Matthew 24
    A flat out lie. No modern scholars agree with this. You have not found any. I've posted information from Adolph Deissman that shows why they don't agree -- the old ideas of a few 19th century scholars, upon which Dispensationalists like Vine based his ideas, are outmoded and superceded by new data.
    : or at least that it is not a gross error to translate parousia as presence.
    Wrong again. In my last post I showed why it is grossly wrong to use "presence" in Matthew 24:3, because it contradicts other scriptures.
    : And I thank you for your help in showing everyone this fact.
    Actually, you simply keep showing your ability bury your head and tell lies.
    : Let me give another example where AlanF is wasting his time researching and our time having to read it. Or really skim it. He brought up Josephus and said:
    :: However, the facts prove that the Society's citations of Josephus are a deliberate misrepresentation of the facts. The fact is that Josephus used parousia 32 times in his writings, out of which he used it to mean strictly "presence" 5 times, strictly "arrival" or "coming" or the like 9 times, and "arrival with subsequent presence" 18 times.
    : Immediately I saw that in his opening statement he had just vindicated the WT publication by showing us that of the 32 times that Josephus used parousia or a similar word he used it to mean presence or arrival with subsequent presence 23 out of the 32 times. The WT indeed agrees that parousia is an arrival and subsequent presence.
    This is where the double lying comes in. The Society actually teaches that its use of "presence" focuses exclusively on the "subsequent presence" part of this meaning, so its 1996 Watchtower article was lying about the Society's historical usage of the term. That's why they use "presence" exclusively in the NWT. I've gone over this many times now, and the fact that you keep ignoring it proves you're a liar.

    AlanF

  • OUTLAW
    OUTLAW

    3RDWitness..Your response to AlanF was not an answer..Do you intend to debate him or not?..Many people are watching this thread, we notice when you are intellectually dishonest..Try again...OUTLAW

  • blondie
    blondie

    Over a 1,000 posts so far. Should I award this thread a lightsaber?

    Is it possible for some enterprising person to condense this into an outline of the salient points and the appropriate support in a logical order on another thread?

    Blondie

  • jayhawk1
    jayhawk1
    Is it possible for some enterprising person to condense this into an outline of the salient points and the appropriate support in a logical order on another thread?

    Blondie, sounds like you just volunteered to do it.

  • Frank75
    Frank75

    TW:

    Who do you think you're fooling anyway?

    You won't tell us who you are and where you are out of fear of being found out by the very same evil men that you are defending.

    Why don't you come clean and tell us why you felt the need to "run ahead of the organization" and post that apology for the UN fiasco as well as your unorthodox Theology/Views?

    Are you DF'd? No one to talk to in your congregation? The bros get that scared look on their face when you start talking about "the Truth" so passionately?

    Most of us have been there before, even AlanF. So why not quit your fighting and realize that you have been mislead by the greatest false prophet the world has ever known?

    You have all the signs that you need everytime you go to that cold dark place called the kingdom hall to catch up on your sleep.

    Matt 16:2-4 He replied,"When evening comes, you say, 'It will be fair weather, for the sky is red,' 3 and in the morning, 'Today it will be stormy, for the sky is red and overcast.' You know how to interpret the appearance of the sky, but you cannot interpret the signs of the times. 4 A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a miraculous sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah." Jesus then left them and went away.
    Frank75
  • thirdwitness
    thirdwitness

    AlanF said: This is where the double lying comes in. The Society actually teaches that its use of "presence" focuses exclusively on the "subsequent presence" part of this meaning, so its 1996 Watchtower article was lying about the Society's historical usage of the term. That's why they use "presence" exclusively in the NWT. I've gone over this many times now, and the fact that you keep ignoring it proves you're a liar.

    Perhaps it would be good to learn the teachings of JWs before criticizing them. Maybe thats why you became such an enemy of Jehovah and His people, because you never understood our teachings. This is why the Bible and JWs emphasize diligent study. So that you can understand the deeper things and not just go by what you think you know. Let me enlighten AlanF as to what JWs teach about parousia.

    8-15-96 WT: Hence, it is not just the moment of arrival, but a presence extending from the arrival onward.

    Insight book: While Jesus’ presence of necessity implies his arrival at the place where he is present, the translation of pa·rou·si´a by “coming” places all the emphasis on the arrival and obscures the subsequent presence that follows the arrival.

    7-1-74: A “visit” includes more than an “arrival.” It includes a “presence.”

    6-15-79 WT This official presence begins with his second coming.

    7-1-79 Tied in with God’s resurrecting Jesus is an event of the greatest importance to all Christians. That is Christ’s return, or second coming. Jesus kept this vital subject before his followers, and they eagerly awaited this return. Shortly before his death, they implored: “Tell us, When will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence [Greek, parousia]
    Who really is the one trying to deceive? Who really is the liar?

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