The funky math is from William Miller and he admitted it was wrong 150 years ago
Jehovah's Witnesses Millerite/Adventist sect spin-off
American Civil war army captain William Miller is ground zero for Jehovah's Witnesses.
There is nothing that made me gasp in horror of all WT/JW falsehoods more then this finding that it all came from the Millerite movement. Yes,the "great disappointment" of Oct 22 1844 has never died out... it lives on in the Seventh day Adventist (who admit it) and the Jehovah's Witnesses who deny it.
Must see video clip: http://www.dannyhaszard.com/cultvideos.htm please go to this link and scroll down for the History Channel clip
The Millerites: Armageddon (History Channel) 4 min clip
This is the highly credible HISTORY CHANNEL (Roger Mudd) not the "apostates" exposing Jehovah's Witnesses as a spin-off of the William Miller movement of 1844
Ergo,no 1914 then there can be no 1918 inspection.....
The central CORE doctrine of the Watchtower,yes the reason the Watchtower came into existence was to declare Jesus second coming in 1914.When the prophecy (derived from William Miller of 1842) failed they said that he came "invisibly".
Ergo,no 1914 then there can be no 1918 inspection and sealing of the 'anointed' so the entire wts doctrinal superstructure comes crashing down like a house of cards
Tell the truth and don't be afraid-Danny Haszard Bangor Maine
The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible
by thirdwitness 1380 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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DannyHaszard
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DannyHaszard
The Millerites: Armageddon (History Channel) 4 1/2 min
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saki2fifty
Welcome back!!! I enjoy your debates with the big boys... and visa versa.
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AuldSoul
I'm going to take post chunk by chunk highlighting ONLY the interpretations APPLIED to the Bible texts. To be fair, I will only highlight those interpretations that come from a source other than the Bible itself. This will, of course, include the use of arbitrarily identified "rules" of prophetic interpretation.
This has been discussed at length by the WT publications. Very briefly Revelation 12: 6 tells us: "And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and sixty days." Later in verse 13 of the same chapter we read, "the woman, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place; there is where she is fed for a time and times and half a time away from the face of the serpent." Clearly we can readily see that 3.5 times = 1260 days. By doubling both figures we can easily conclude that 7 times = 2520 days. Then by applying the day for a year rule we deduct that 7 times = 2520 years. Amazing as it may seem, it is 2520 years from 607BCE to 1914CE. Are the seven times of Daniel chapter 4 to be applied in connection with the Gentile Times and God's rulership?
The plural kairous is not specific of the number 2 being the multiple. Assuming that interpretation is invalid on its face. Therefore, all that can be determined with certainty from the phrase "a time and times and half a time" (which, BTW, is verse 14, not 13) is that the number of times is at least 3.5. I don't disagree that the interpretation given is reasonable, but it is not textually proven in the Bible and must therefore be interpretted by humans.
There is no basis for using the "rule" a day for a year in Daniel chapter 4. The fact that "a day for a year" is not a prophetic "rule" at all can be quickly demonstrated in the case of the Israelite trek in the wikderness, the forty days of rain for the flood (was it forty years?), and even the Watchtower Society's own interpretation of the 1,260 days in Revelation. They do not ever assert that the 1,260 days equate to 1,260 years.
The claim is made by many that the tree dream only applied to Neb and nothing more. That he would have his sickness for 7 years and then be restored after that 7 years. But it is most interesting that the word Daniel chose to use in Daniel 4 concerning the tree was not the same word used for the word 'year'. He used the word "iddan" which means epoch, age, seasons, or times . Iddan is not the word that would be used merely to describe one year if one year is what is meant. There is a different word used to describe the word 'year'. For example, the word for year in Hebrew is "shana". By using the word "iddan" it becomes evident that Daniel wanted to convey the thought that something was meant beyond a simple seven years otherwise why not just use the word for years?
What can we conclude concerning Daniel's use of the word 'iddan'? That Daniel must have used that word for 'times' purposely or was at least directed by Jehovah to use the word. We have to wonder why? Why the use of the word 'times' instead of years? There must have been a reason. If the tree dream is only to be applied to Nebuchadnezzar then why didn't the prophecy simply say 7 years. Why 7 times? The only reasonable conclusion one can draw is so that it could later be connected to Revelation to show that 7 times does equal 2520. Apparently it was meant for 7 times to be deciphered as 2520 in order to show us that it has greater significance other than just the 7 years upon Neb? Otherwise, why the clues? Was it Jehovah's intention to mislead Bible readers?First, the word "iddan" does not have to mean something beyond "years". It can also mean seasons, which would be substantially shorter than "years". Assuming it meant something beyond has no basis in the text and is a interpretation that does not arise from the Bible at all.
Second, it is not a "reasonable" conclusion that the seven times of Daniel 4 is tied to Revelation at all. Unless you are asserting that 1,260 days actually meant 1,260 years. Are you asserting that, thirdwitness?
There can be no doubt that the verses in Revelation were written to show us exactly the length of seven times so we can understand the tree dream in Daniel. Otherwise, John could have just been directed to write 1260 days and leave the cryptic 'time times and half of times' out all together since it is just repetition and does not help us in the interpretation of Revelation at all. In other words the seven times in Daniel do not help us to figure out what the 3.5 times are in Revelation. It is the other way around.
Pure conjecture. There is not one shred of substance in the entire paragraph, especially if you are NOT asserting that the 1,260 days equals 1,260 years. I assure you, thirdwitness, there CAN be doubt that the verses in Revelation were written to explain Daniel. I have truckloads of doubt about that exact point. So far, you've written nothing to allay those doubts and have added several.
Think about this: If seven times mean only 7 years then Daniel could have simply said 7 years. Then Revelation could have simply said 3.5 years or 1260 days or 42 months. And nobody would ever even need to mention 'times' and everyone would be happy and understand it all. But because 7 times means 7 years with Neb but 2520 years in the great scheme of things then Daniel had to use a different term other than years. He had to use a word that could convey both the 7 years upon Neb and the hundreds of years spanning the Gentile times. That term he was directed by Jehovah to use was 'iddan' or 'times'. Since this needed to be understood, then John was directed to use the same terminology, 'times', to show the length of seven times and thus the book of Daniel could be understood by seekers of truth.
The word "iddan" can also mean seasons or measures of time. What if Daniel was making clear that it would NOT be years? Since there IS a valid explanation that does not require a second fulfillment and since the Bible is silent on any future fulfillment of Neb's tree dream, creating a second fulfillment is an exercise in nothing more than fanciful redaction of the interpretation Daniel gave for the dream.
The term John used was translated "times" but can also mean seasons or simply measures of time. "Times" is not some sort of mystical terminology.
I would go on, because the entire piece is filled with such nonsense. But I think what I have posted is sufficient to demonstrate ample cause for doubt regarding your interpretation of the Bible. It is indeed either your interpretation or the Society's interpretation; it is not from the Bible at all.
That is apparently a trait of the Society. Except for repentance and conversion, JW pre-baptismal requirements are also not based on the Bible. Neither are the phrases "paradise earth", "Governing Body", "field service", nor many of the dozens of titles and offices.—1 John 4:1
AuldSoul
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ackack
The bit of this that has always confused me, is how did Jesus becoming king in October 1914 and casting Satan to earth cause World War which started in July?
ackack
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Finally-Free
The bit of this that has always confused me, is how did Jesus becoming king in October 1914 and casting Satan to earth cause World War which started in July?
In compliance with tenency legislation Satan was given 3 months notice of eviction. That enabled him to get a head start in causing trouble here on earth.
I thought everyone knew that.
W
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Forscher
What you are presenting is nothing but interpretation 3W.
Even assuming that the 607B.C.E. date is correct, the application of Daniel chapter four to it along with the rules from Daniel chapter nine regarding the appearance of the Messiah is pure supposition. Nowhere in the story of chapter four are we told, nor is there any indication, like we see in Matt. chapter 24, that the dream had any application beyond Nebuchanezzar himself. The Witnesses assume it does based on a vague reference by Jesus to the "times of the Gentiles" (Lu. 21:24 RSV). They claim authority to make that lnkage based on a verse in Ezekiel 21:25-27 (see the Insight Vol. I under the headinding The Appointed Times of the Nations). Talk about cherry-picking one's verses!
Nothing in those verses definatively authorises the complete package of links needed to make the whole. Thus, the interpretation asserted for the beginning and the length of the "Gentile Times" is nothing but interpretation. History doesn't prove the assertion made because Jerusalem is not completely in Jewish, much less Davidic hands at this time. the temple is still being trod down by "Gentiles".
I realise that the Governing Body goes in for a non-literal interpretation of that prophecy based on their replacement theology. However, that is purely interpretive as well, so what you end up with is an arguement that it is so because the Witnesses say it is so! Hardly an authoritative arguement for anyone outside of the organization 3W.
By taking on the task of objectively "proving" your assertions 3W you, and your masters, set yourself to an impossible task there is no objective criteria avaiable given the highly subjective nature of the subject matter invovled.
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stevenyc
Also, regarding the 7 times of Neb going nuts, the bible explicitly tells us whether it could have a second meaning or not. Verse 33 says: "Immediately what had been said about Nebuchadnezzar was fulfilled."
Case closed.
steve
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cabasilas
Thirdwitness,
You say you wrote this “using the Bible.” Yet, one of your weakest chains in your presentation is to show where the Bible clearly states that Nebuchadnezzar’s tree dream in Daniel chapter 4 applies to the kingdom of God. Yes, trees are used as metaphors for rulers elsewhere in the Bible. How does that prove that the “tree” in Daniel 4 had any other application that what is plainly stated? Interestingly, at this point in your article you resort to citing the Watchtower Society’s publication Insight on the Scriptures to clinch the point:
The WT put it well when it said: "examination of the entire book of Daniel reveals that the element of time is everywhere prominent in the visions…”
But, what does the Bible say? Daniel 4:28 says: “All this befell Nebuchadnezzar the king.” There is no indication in this chapter that it has any other application. Did the Bible forget to tell us it has another application?
Let’s go back to the dream itself. Nebuchadnezzar is the tree. After 7 years of “having the heart of a beast” (Dan. 4:16) he is restored to his throne. So, in this supposed “greater fulfillment” is the tree God’s sovereignty? Was God’s sovereignty given the “heart of a beast” for 7 times? Did God’s rulership towards mankind act beastly for 2,520 years? Remember, Nebuchadnezzar did not die during his “seven times.” Yet, in the supposed secondary application (considered to be the primary application by the Watchtower Society) the expression of God’s sovereignty on the earth is non-existent during this 2,520 year period.
The Watchtower Society’s interpretation of Daniel chapter 4 is eisegesis, not exegesis. Instead of interpreting from the text it is reading into it something that is not there.
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IW
Dear Thirdwitness aka GB agent/Jaracz' secret jihad against apostates,
This is fun keep it coming.
IW (secret JW spy)