The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness 1380 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  Hellrider

  Thirdwitness:

  Should We Apply the Day for a Year Rule?

  No. The "day for a year"-rule isn`t even a rule a all. It is used twice in the entire Bible, once in Numbers 14 (the 40 years in the desert), and once in Ezekiel 4. Both the times that this "rule" (which isn`t even a rule) goes into effect, it is explicitly stated that it does. Also, the YEARS of punishment in these two passages, are equivalent to the number of DAYS that Israel were being disobedient to God. So, "a day for a year" is punishment for Israel! This aspect is not there in neither Jeremiah nor Daniel, and there is no mentioning of the "day for a year-rule" at all. Clearly then, to use it, is wrong.

  The Bible also says that to God, a thousand years is like a day, and a day like a thousand years. There is no reason why THIS should not be used in conjunction (hope that`s the right word, english is my 2nd language) with the 2520 days. In fact, it would make MORE sense that THIS rule be applied, instead of a year, as the aspect of punishment is not there (as the Bible explicitly states that the 70 years are for Babylon). That would place the end of the world to be 2520000 years into the future from the day these words were written down. Of course, the "Jehovahs witnesses" are not interested in waiting that long. They want it right now, before even one more generation "that saw these events fulfilled" have passed away.
• 

  daniel-p

  It's a amazing how complicated truth gets when you read into Biblical prophesy.
• 

  stevenyc

  
  Thirdwitness says:

  As has been said before, the Bible interprets itself and so we do not have to guess about the meaning of Daniel chapter 4 at all.

  However, EVERYTHING you present is assumption and conjecture.

  You are making a case the the dream of the tree applies to Israel. In order to make your point you twist scripture. For all JWLurkers here is an example of how the society makes things up for their own purposes. In this case to cover a failed doctrine.

  To clear up this confusion, lets read what the bible says:

  Dan 4:20 The tree you saw, which grew large and strong, with its top touching the sky, visible to the whole earth, 21 with beautiful leaves and abundant fruit, providing food for all, giving shelter to the beasts of the field, and having nesting places in its branches for the birds of the air- 22 you, O king, are that tree! You have become great and strong; your greatness has grown until it reaches the sky, and your dominion extends to distant parts of the earth.

  Not Zedekiah. You are a perfect example of how the watch tower society take selective portions of the bible and twists them for your own agenda. For Shame.

  steve
• 

  Hoping4Change

  3W - You state that this proof is ".....according to the irrefutable evidence presented in God's word the Bible" Can you please explain the following: Fact: There are no dates in the bible. Therefore: In order to use the "irrefutable evidence presented in God's word the Bible", one must use SOME piece of secular/archaelogical/worldly evidence to establish AT LEAST ONE date from which to begin deriving any other chronological claims based upon "the irrefutable evidence presented in God's word the Bible." Please, can you give us what date and established from what "secular/archaelogical/worldly evidence" is used to do the rest of the derivation. I find that in order for your presented proof to begin merit investigation, you must present your "accepted" premises along with "why" it is accepted. Then and only then, is it possible to proceed with the proof offered. And one more thing, please do not just provide a link to some other site, or long winded thread. I just would like to know the foundational assumptions upon which this proof is based. Thanks.
• 

  SWALKER

  What can we conclude concerning Daniel's use of the word 'iddan'? That Daniel must have used that word for 'times' purposely or was at least directed by Jehovah to use the word. We have to wonder why? Why the use of the word 'times' instead of years? There must have been a reason. If the tree dream is only to be applied to Nebuchadnezzar then why didn't the prophecy simply say 7 years. Why 7 times? The only reasonable conclusion one can draw is so that it could later be connected to Revelation to show that 7 times does equal 2520. Apparently it was meant for 7 times to be deciphered as 2520 in order to show us that it has greater significance other than just the 7 years upon Neb? Otherwise, why the clues? Was it Jehovah's intention to mislead Bible readers?

  That's exactly what it's done to millions of JW's...mislead them. They didn't follow Jesus words at Mark 13:32. It wasn't ever supposed to be about the day or hour, but the JW's took it on themselves to try and prove to the world they were the ONLY true worshipers of God and in doing so, have made themselves out to look like true idiots. If Daniel and John both didn't understand what they were writing, why do guys who don't even claim to have direct contact with God claim they do?

  If God had thought life depended on these dates (607 & 1914) surely he could have just had them recorded! JW's Armageddon scare tactic is other religion's Hellfire tactics!!!

  It's too bad that the simple message that Jesus preached isn't enough for most people. Does it make you a better person or does it elevate you above other people to "know" the above "clue"?

  The whole end of the world debate issue is ludicrous!!! Why not just try LIVING in the real world instead of fantasy land?

  Swalker
• 

  Alwayshere

  Can you overcome the points as to why ;the 7 times are ; calculated as 2520 and why Neb's dream does apply from the time that God's rulership ceased on earth by means of the Kings of Judah and continued once again with the crowning of the one who had the right to rule?

  thirdwitness, read Daniel 4:21-22-25-26. Daniel says the Tree represents Nebuchadnezzar and the 7 times would pass over him and because the rootstock of the tree was left, it meant Nebuchadnezzar would get his Kingdom back. Genesis 40:8 says interpretation belongs to God.[not the Watchtower Society] 2peter 1:20 says "no prophecy comes from any private interpretation." Neb's dream does not even mention God's Kingdom or the Kings of Judah. And this is no bs.
• 

  smellsgood

  thirdwitness, A/S/L?
• 

  TD

  thirdwitness,

  With respect, this prophetic interpretation strikes me as incomprehensible aside from archeological considerations.

  One is the incomplete transition from the corporeal to the spiritual at some point between the start and end points of the interpretation. The 2520 year period starts with real, tangible events involving human beings and human edifices (e.g. the destruction of the temple and the loss of sovereignty of the Jewish nation) and ends with heavenly invisible events involving spirit creatures.

  While the visual of Jerusalem as a nation of humans being trampled upon by larger more powerful Gentile nations, especially Rome, is something that non-JW's can at least wrap their mind around, the idea of the resurrected and glorified Jesus, his interests, his kingdom, his kingship etc. being similarly affected in any way is not.

  Another is the text of the Lukan account itself.

  kai pesouvtai stomati maxairaV -And they will fall by the mouth of the sword

  kai aicmalwtisqhsontai eis panta ta eqnh -And they will be led into all the nations

  kai ierousalhm estai patoumenh -And Jerusalem will be trodden

  This is not the way, in Greek, to describe events that were initiated some 640 odd years (By JW chronology) in past time.

  Another problem for me is the point where the "prophetic wheels" should ostensibly meet the road. Even if we discount past Watchtower nonsense in the form of claims that the nations initiated the Great War out of anger at the enthronment of Earth's new king, (Which creates a humorous situation in which the nations knew about this enthronement before the Bible Students did) what are we left with?

  I've read in JW literature that Russell clapped his hands before his bretheren and said something to the effect, "The Gentile times have ended; The kings have had their day!" If that was true, the nations certainly don't seem to know about it do they? That was very nearly 92 years ago and ways of explaining this lacunae that resort to the word "invisible" come across as little more than band-aids for failed expectations.
• 

  aniron

  My head is spinning after reading all that!
  

  The trouble is that 3W is trapped. He has to rely on WT research to prove his point. WT research which is extremely faultly to say the least.
  

  Its like a person on trial using the evidence against him to prove his innocence.
  

  I thought crossed my mind reading the above.
  

  I find it strange that Jehovah would use an idol worshipping pagan, to represent His rulership and sovereignty.
  

  I thought that those who represented "Jehovahs rulership" on earth, were the Israelite kings who sat on the throne at Jerusalem.
  

  Not some pagan from another people and land.

  If Jehovah was going to give such prophecy. Then wouldn't it be logical to use the last Israelite king to represent the tree being cut down etc.
  

  
  
  
• 

  AlanF

  thirdwitless wrote:

  : I personally wrote this. Will the administrator delete it because it proves 607 to 1914 really was the Gentile 7 Times? We shall see.

  What a devious moron you are! You're devious because you think to imply that your previous cut & pastes were deleted because they actually proved something. You were told the reason: large cut & pastes of anything are not welcome -- they are viewed as trolling. You're a moron because you actually seem to think that posters won't see your lying implication. : We have shown previously (http://www.jehovahsjudgment.co.uk/607/default.html) how 607BCE not 587BCE is indeed the year that Jerusalem was desolated according to the irrefutable evidence presented in God's word the Bible. Ha ha ha ha ha! : Even some of those who have previously tried to discredit Jehovah's Witnesses by saying 607BCE is the incorrect date of Jerusalem's desolation are now forced to admit that it may indeed be the correct date because they have no clear answer for the Biblical evidence presented in favor of 607 and against 587. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! The 607 date has been thoroughly disproved on this board and elsewhere. You simply refuse to admit it. You fail to address many proofs because you know you can't, then you claim you've covered all objections. You're a liar. For example, you've ignored my post " Fact Jews Returned In 538 BC Kills Off Watchtower Chronology " even though you've been told about it a number of times. With the Watchtower's 537 date disproved, the rest of the 607 - 1914 chronological claims are moot. : In light of this, not wanting to admit that Jehovah's Witnesses indeed have the truth, they now have resorted to this view: 'So what. It doesn't matter if it was 607 or 587! This proves nothing about 1914. It is still an artfully contrived story with no basis in the Bible. There is no evidence that 607 began the Gentile Times and that 1914 was the end of those Gentile Times.' Your claim here is typical of the lies typically told by JW defenders. The fact is that only one or two posters might be put into your anonymous "they", yet you lump all other posters with them. You've maligned almost all the posters on this board. The rest of your post is an excercise in strained claims and special pleading. It has no basis in the Bible or in fact. Because you're committed as a worshiper of JW leaders, no amount of information will dissuade you from your cultish views. AlanF