Confrontation - is it for Christians?

by jgnat 49 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  agapa37

  You know I thought about the apostle Paul just now.

  "Men of Athens, I behold that in all things YOU seem to be more given to the fear of the deities than others are. 23

  For instance, while passing along and carefully observing YOUR objects of veneration I also found an altar on which had been inscribed ‘To an Unknown God.’ Therefore what YOU are unknowingly giving godly devotion to, this I am publishing to YOU. 24 The God that made the world and all the things in it, being, as this One is, Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in handmade temples, 25 neither is he attended to by human hands as if he needed anything, because he himself gives to all [persons] life and breath and all things. 26 And he made out of one [man] every nation of men, to dwell upon the entire surface of the earth, and he decreed the appointed times and the set limits of the dwelling of [men], 27 for them to seek God, if they might grope for him and really find him, although, in fact, he is not far off from each one of us. 28 For by him we have life and move and exist, even as certain ones of the poets among YOU have said, ‘For we are also his progeny.’

  29

  "Seeing, therefore, that we are the progeny of God, we ought not to imagine that the Divine Being is like gold or silver or stone, like something sculptured by the art and contrivance of man. 30 True, God has overlooked the times of such ignorance, yet now he is telling mankind that they should all everywhere repent. 31 Because he has set a day in which he purposes to judge the inhabited earth in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed, and he has furnished a guarantee to all men in that he has resurrected him from the dead."

  I really admired the way that Paul handled that. He handled it with grace and sincerity. Who knows he may have considered them unbelievers but he did not voice it! The account says:

  "Now while Paul was waiting for them in Athens, his spirit within him came to be irritated at beholding that the city was full of idols."

  Because he understood his commision from jesus he lovingly handled that situation with the hopes of helping some turn to True Worship. Can you Imagine if he started ranting throught the city? "Bunch of NON BELIVERS!" He would have been stoned. LOL
• 

  jgnat

  Okay, now I am insulted. You won't SAY it but you are certainly THINK it. At least my husband is up-front about his teachings. AND after a few personal exchanges, you've switched to scriptures, a step AWAY from person-to-person communication. A sermon no less. A sermon requires a speaker and an audience. I prefer equal exchange of ideas.

  Now, I don't want to leave on a sour note, but I can't stop yawning now. If you want to consider if there are various grades and statuses of JW's, and if their opinions are treated with the same weight, I'd be interested. I'll check back in the morning.

  Oh and another thing. I was well grounded in the bible, study methods, and my personal spiritual foundation BEFORE I met the witnesses. I think that alone made me immune to their teachings. You might want to do some research on the inductive method of bible study.
• 

  agapa37

  
  Wait! that was not meant as an insult . I told you in my last post i did not feel that way about you. Even if I felt you were a non believer ( which of course I do not) a True Christian in my book would not say it to someone. "Your a NON believer!" That just wouldnt sit well with the person you just said that to. I don't know i'm rambling now Basically I would be cautious to say that to anyone. That is just me personally.

  That account just popped up into my mind and so I said it. it was not to be preachy, I was conversing. I felt that account had some application to what i said in the above. Sorry.
• 

  vitty

  Jgnat

  The way I read what agape said was not the way you read it . I think he was showing how Paul never told ppl they were unbelievers. I think agape was agreeing with you and thinks you ARE a believer !!!!!!!!!!!!! If you know what I mean.

  Agape, I think witness like you, ones who take bible principles above what the congregations actually do, are always in for a hard time. The ones who tow the WT line get on great. Youve seen them, they are like rabid dogs, they love rules and regulations but dont know much about love.
• 

  Ade

  when i had a problem with an elders timekeeping, daughters dress sense, ignorance and gossip spreading, i took it to the other elders ( after speaking to him concerning it on two occasions ). After this i was not officially deemed an apostate, however everyone said i was in the wrong for speaking out against an elder ?? ( maybe they are like the pope - perfect ?? and must not be spoken against ). months after i refused to go to the book group because of his terrible attitude ( and his family's ) nothing was sorted for us to get into another group , no one visited etc. finally i took it to the PO a man known for not liking confrontation. He appeared on his own to see me, Why you may ask, because then there were no witnesses to what had been said and he need not confront the other elder.
  
  Instead it was fine to keep saying "Jehovah will sort it out in his own time" regardless of my family's so called "Faith" going down the drain ( which i since have discovered - is a blind hope instigated by money hoarding vultures who abuse GODS word for their personal gain - leading many a true person astray along the way )
  
  Had the matter been sorted quickly. And a meeting ( confrontation ) ( which i requested ) been had between myself another party and the elder in question, everything could have been sorted out. fortunately this was not to happen and to be one of the things that led me to the understanding "elders" are just men with titles who find it impossible to accept their shortcomings and act as a"brood of vipers" covering each others backs in times of "need" but never confronting each other .
  
  That elder continues such a vile path to this very day, as no one dares to speak against "Gods appointed ones" we must just sit back be placid brothers and sisters and allow the elders to counsel you but never you utter a word in return lest you are working against GOD.
  
  although this is not totally relevant to the post it does give a good understanding of how they can abuse their own system to avoid confrontation, the trouble is when this kind of avoidance of the problem takes place eventually all things come to a head, and thats when people can see the truth about the "truth" and its "leaders, brothers and sisters"
  
  GOD bless you all
  Ade
• 

  jgnat

  I felt that account had some application to what i said in the above. Sorry.

  Good morning! Did I ever have trouble getting to sleep last night. My neurons were firing at double speed, that's for sure. That must be what it feels like after downing a double double mocha latte. Forgive me, it was late, and it looks like I overreacted. I do that when posters copy large sections of bible text I know already. Sorry back.

  Any more thoughts on the various statuses of JW's? Do you think my observations are generally correct?
• 

  AuldSoul

  agapa,

  We are instructed to do exactly what Jesus said to do when differences arise.

  Would you handle it the same way if your difference was with a Circuit or District overseer? What would the outcome be? What if your difference was a doctrinal one, or over having come across evidence of organizational behavior that offended your conscience? How would you handle it?

  I couldn't afford to drive to New York, and even if I had I doubt I'd have gotten audience with the Governing Body, so when I learned about their 10-year membership to the United Nations Department of Public Information, I wrote to them to express the grave concerns this raised for me. They wrote back, but their letter was dismissive, misdirecting, misrepresentative of facts, and they tried to blame me for my having a problem with their actions.

  I wrote a second time (this letter accompanied by one from my local body of elders) pleading with them to demonstrate the kind of candor and humility that I rightly associate with spirit-direction. Their response was not sent to me, it was sent to the body. The body was instructed to read portions with me, but not to allow me to have a copy of the letter. The body was further instructed that if I remained unsatisfied with this reply I was to be instructed to keep my concerns to myself.

  Within a congregation, disputes can be handled the way Jesus recommended as long as there is no need for a publisher to chastise an elder or higher-up. And if you have issues with doctrines you are welcome to ask but you CANNOT hotly dispute the matter. You are instructed to accept the answer given or keep your mouth shut about your concerns.

  I did not keep my mouth shut about my concerns. The local body of elders arranged a Judicial Committee. I disassociated myself. I refuse to be silenced by organizational edict in order to hide the truth, to conceal wrongdoing, to support falsehoods.

  How does this fit with your understanding of how things should work in the Christian congregation?

  Respectfully,
  AuldSoul
• 

  Ade

  To Auldsoul
  
  "Within a congregation, disputes can be handled the way Jesus recommended as long as there is no need for a publisher to chastise an elder or higher-up. And if you have issues with doctrines you are welcome to ask but you CANNOT hotly dispute the matter. You are instructed to accept the answer given or keep your mouth shut about your concerns."
  
  Spot on what i experienced .
  all the very best
  Ade
• 

  Flash

  I am a brother. not very well liked. Thats ok though. If im disliked for applying scriptures properly then that,s cool by me. i did not grow up in the truth. A convert.
  I am an Elder (Shepard at heart though). ...Was born a catholic but never practiced it. Don't get me wrong, I am cooperative when things are done right but when they are not I am not afraid to speak up. I respect the arrangement within the Congregation but when it is not right I will say something and continue till it is right or if it is out of my control and I have done everything that I CAN possible do scripturally and it is still not resolved, that is when I leave it in the hands of Jesus, the Head of the Congregation. ( or as you quoted earlier, in Jehovah's hands)

  
  
  I can really relate agapa37. Our stories are very similar. You are a "thinking" Witness who is genuinely trying his best to worship Jehovah as a Christian. You already know you aren't popular for it, and you wont be. You will probably be shunned eventualy because because of your emphasis on being a True Christian rather than a devoted servant of the FDS and worshiper of "The Organization."

  I know that you dont feel that the bible is infalliable. Right? A book that can be trusted as the preserved word of God.

  Here is where I would ask you to be very careful. Mark 13: 14 "(let the reader use discernment)" Does the bible contain the word of God? ~ Yes. Is every thought and opinion contained in the bible a divine standard or command from God? ~ No. For instance, Proverbs 31: 6 and 7 is just the opinion of King Lemuel's mother, not a "Bible Principal." When reading Deuteronomy 24: 1 ~ 4 it appears to be God's law though Moses, does it not? Yet, when we read Matthew 19: 7 ~ 9 Jesus makes it clear that on the matter of divorce Moses took it upon himself to make law...it was not from Jehovah. Would any Israelite who disagreed with Moses law on divorce been wrong? Or was Moses wrong to begin with? Now, concerning the writtings of the apostle Paul, his personal opinions and imposed "traditions" are intertwined throughout his writtings. Here are a few examples: 1 Corinthians 11: 4 ~ 16 (pay special note to verses 14 and 16) also chapter 14: 34 and 35, 1 Timothy 2: 9 ~12, Before he was a Christian, Paul was a Zealot for Judaism, a man raised in a life of "Tradtion." Galatians 1: 13 and 14. His writtings (more than those of Moses) show he had no problem imposing his personal views and traditions on the congregation. Should we not use our discernment and be discriminating as to what we accept as from Christ through Paul or should we just assume it is ALL from Christ. Remember Pauls coversion? He went almost overnight from being and unbalanced zealot Jew to being a Christian...an unbalanced zealot Christian ( 2 Corinthians 11: 16 ~ 23 please especialy note verses 17 and 23 ) who ultimately caused his own imprisionment and pre-mature death by ignoring 2 divine warnings NOT to go to Jerusalem. Acts 21: 4, 10 ~ 13 Does that mean Jehovah did not inspire / motivate the bible to be written and preserved? ~ No.
  
  Does inspiration alone elevate ALL the contents of the bible to the level of Divine Law? As I hope I have just shown ~ No. "(let the reader use discernment)" Mark 13: 14

  ---

  although this is not totally relevant to the post it does give a good understanding of how they can abuse their own system to avoid confrontation, the trouble is when this kind of avoidance of the problem takes place eventually all things come to a head, and thats when people can see the truth about the "truth" and its "leaders, brothers and sisters"

  Amen Ade!
• 

  LongHairGal

  Yes it is - even if we didn't have biblical accounts of Jesus telling people off.
  
  Doesn't anybody remember that we should have self love? If you let people walk all over you and abuse you that shows a lack of self-esteem. There is a difference between self-esteem and conceit.
  
  Years ago I got into arguments with stupid sisters when I related incidents where I had to confront somebody about something (work or elsewhere). These idiots believe that being a christian means being a doormat (which I wouldn't be even if it WERE required to be a christian). I certainly do not like confrontation and for the most part I shrink from it - until it can no longer be avoided. In almost every instance it was a confrontation with a nervy individual who was really taking advantage.
  
  LHG