Did anyone really buy into the "Universal Sovereignty" issue? (page 3)

JWdaughter

I too wondered about that. Made God seem like a petty tyrant out to prove something-like a true God would NEED to prove anything to anybody! That seemed lame to me when I was 8.

Welcome!

Not the WTS's version, but there is an issue of rulership that runs through the bible. God's rule or man's. Who do you choose to rule over you? The nation of Isreal choose man to rule over them instead of God's rule.

(1 Samuel 8:4-9) 4 In time all the older men of Israel collected themselves together and came to Samuel at Ra´mah 5 and said to him: "Look! You yourself have grown old, but your own sons have not walked in your ways. Now do appoint for us a king to judge us like all the nations." 6 But the thing was bad in the eyes of Samuel inasmuch as they had said: "Do give us a king to judge us," and Samuel began to pray to Jehovah. 7 Then Jehovah said to Samuel: "Listen to the voice of the people as respects all that they say to you; for it is not you whom they have rejected, but it is I whom they have rejected from being king over them. 8 In accord with all their doings that they have done from the day of my bringing them up out of Egypt until this day in that they kept leaving me and serving other gods, that is the way they are doing also to you. 9 And now listen to their voice. Only this, that you should solemnly warn them, and you must tell them the rightful due of the king who will reign over them."

(1 Samuel 8:10-18) 10

So Samuel said all the words of Jehovah to the people who were asking a king of him. 11 And he proceeded to say: "This will become the rightful due of the king that will reign over YOU: YOUR sons he will take and put them as his in his chariots and among his horsemen, and some will have to run before his chariots; 12 and to appoint for himself chiefs over thousands and chiefs over fifties, and [some] to do his plowing and to reap his harvest and to make his war instruments and his chariot instruments. 13 And YOUR daughters he will take for ointment mixers and cooks and bakers. 14 And YOUR fields and YOUR vineyards and YOUR olive groves, the best ones, he will take and actually give to his servants. 15 And of YOUR fields of seed and of YOUR vineyards he will take the tenth, and he will certainly give [them] to his court officials and his servants. 16 And YOUR menservants and YOUR maidservants and YOUR best herds, and YOUR asses he will take, and he will have to use them for his work. 17 Of YOUR flocks he will take the tenth, and YOU yourselves will become his as servants. 18 And YOU will certainly cry out in that day by reason of YOUR king, whom YOU have chosen for yourselves, but Jehovah will not answer YOU in that day."

The only issue I see is, that God didn't want man to rule over man because God knew power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutly. Man and his thousands of laws. Or God and his two laws, which as Jesus indicated was to love God ect. and your neigbor as yourself that's all. Personally I like the two laws... And where are we today? We have corrupt men ruling over us with their thousands of laws Peace Acadian.

funkyderek

acadian:

The nation of Isreal choose man to rule over them instead of God's rule.

Can you blame them? They had nothing but problems with God ruling over them.

The only issue I see is, that God didn't want man to rule over man because God knew power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutly.

Doesn't God have absolute power? That would explain why he behaves so abominably.

Man and his thousands of laws. Or God and his two laws

So, have you read the Pentateuch? Thousands of laws, supposedly coming directly from God on subjects as trivial as diet and hairstyles. The Old Testament god had lots of very specific arbitrarylaws, and demanded that they were carried out to the letter under pain of death. Granted, the New Testament god invented by Jesus was much more laid-back, but the Israelites had to put up with the old angry version for a millennium and a half before Jesus came along, and said that God didn't really mean any of it.

And where are we today? We have corrupt men ruling over us with their thousands of laws

I would rather that than to live in any country that claims to be ruled by God.

Wasanelder Once

Blondie,

Didn't Rutherford refer to this as a universal court case? Was that also made a doctrine as late as 1986? I thought it was established by Rutherford that there was a universal court in session in line with Daniel or was it in Isaiah? You know, you bring forth your witnesses etc. as to who is God... Somewhere along the line it became apparent to me that after Russell it all became doctrine based on the legal perspective of Rutherford. I figured it was Jehovah using a Legal eagle to make known his will as he used Joshua, a general, Moses a prophet etc. Then it just became too silly and I knew this was a megalomaniac on the loose when I started reading his rainbow of books and saw he was a nutjob.

Lemme know what you find on that universal court case business.

Thanks,

W.Once

Zico

What I want to know, is if Jehovah is so just, why doesn't he give PERFECT humans a chance to rule themselves and see how they do?

It doesn't seem very fair, to say 'Ok, I'll give you humans a chance to rule yourselves, but first, I'm going to make you less intelligent, I'm going to introduce sickness, disasters, pain, suffering and death into the world.'

What hope did we have? Even if we could gain world peace, and remove crime, we are still going to have pain, and sickness, and death. How does that prove that man cannot look after themselves?

loli

How about this theory: could it be possible that the Judeo-Christian way to expalin creation is just a myth? Look at other civilizations and tribal cultures. Every one of them just tries to explain how we came here and why things are not "perfect." Just because the ancient Hebrew culture was literate did not make them superior. Just because they had a written language did not give them the monopoly of the only creation myth, did it? History is written (many times) by the victors. So, when the Bible was written, could the people justify the racism, genocide, hatred of homosexuals, and basic intolerance by stating that God gave them the victory?

jaguarbass

When I was in grade school I believed. How was I to know by the time I was 30 I came around to your way of thinking.

loli

Hi zico! Try this on: what if god (in whatever form) IS actually secure enough to allow humans to govern themselves apart from him/her/itself? What if the garden of eden myth is actually just a metaphor for what happens when beings use their own free will? Come on, free will can't be free if the one giving it tells the recipient how it is to be used. Further, Adam and Eve (still not sure if I buy that humanity started with them) were supposedly perfect. They did not know good from bad before they partook of the fruit, SOOOOO, how the heck could they be responsible for all the terrible things if they were incapable of knowing what was evil? It just doesn't make sense. What if the metaphor is illustrating the idea that we all start in spirit as complete and perfect. We choose to separate ourselves from perfection in order to experience things of the physical realm. (casting ourselves out of the garden) I guess I try to reconcile elements of different philosophies (Eastern and otherwise)to see the best in all beliefs. namaste'

loli

Just curious if Blondie replied to Wasanelderonce. I'm fascinated by her wealth of info.

loli

killin' those threads again

Did anyone really buy into the "Universal Sovereignty" issue?

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