TWO down and counting

by crossroads 61 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  crossroads

  This weekend in Texas a man from over THEIR was killed
  only reason the way he looked. In Mesa AZ. a part of the
  greater PHX. valley, a man with THAT kind of beard with
  THAT kind of head ware speaking in THAT kind of voice
  was gunned down at his job. He was from India a Sikh.

  Two white middle class teenagers dressed in leather coats
  walk into a Colorado High School and TERRORIZE their school killing many students. NO teenage white males in
  leather coats gunned down. NO War on Terrorism waged.

  In Okla. the Federal building is bombed around 160 people
  die. No young white males with crew cuts are gunned down.
  In what all news anchors call the worst act of terrorism ever
  on American soil(up to that time) NO war on terrorism is waged.

  In a thread a person asked all us Doves well them what should
  the President do first? If their is really a war on Terrorism being
  waged why in this past week haven't the Feds. rounded up
  all members of White Hate Groups who Terrorize, KKK,
  Young Nazi's , the people who want to over throw the government
  like Tim's crowd of which their are many. The FBI has the names
  they know where there sites are where they train people to fight
  and terrorize.

  But Crossroads this is America WE can't do that. It's the Home
  of the Brave and the Land of the Free. It is for the W.A.S.P.
  The War on Drugs has not worked what it has done is put
  many, many, way to many young Black men in jail. This War
  on Terrorism that we are being sold won't work either. For in
  reality it is not a WAR on Terrorism. This is JR. finishing a WAR
  that SR. walked away from.

  "War is not the answer only love can conquer hate"
• 

  teejay

  Cool post, Mark. Many good points.

  I especially liked what you said about the bombing in OKC.

  On a call-in radio show late last week, a local yah-hoo predictably voiced the popular opinion that he didn't like "them" over here, that "they" should not be allowed into the country. I was hopping mad, not an easy thing to do. The station's panel blasted him and seemed like they meant it, but I called in anyway.

  I said that no similar comment was made BY ANYONE, EVER, when it was learned that the culprit in Okc (mcveigh) was a good ol', white American war veteran. Back then, when the perp was found all of a sudden, instead of vengeful hatred for "them", the sentiment took an odd turn. Folks wanted to search the boy's history, talk to his parents, learn about his home life. But expel him? Take it out on others who looked like him? Not in America. No way in hell. Hmmmm...

  After I got over my initial rush of fevered patriotism and started to think about the stunning neatness of the events as they have played out since Tuesday, I've come to find that I am in the minority when analyzing the happenings. I will not be voicing my views loudly. On the way home from breakfast this morning, I noticed that nearly every home sported Old Glory in some form or fashion, from wall-size ones hanging from the eaves to postcard-size ones at the curb.

  Push comes to shove, I'm heading for Target and buy one myself, you betcha. It won't mean much, but hey, I know how to play the game of deception, just like the prez.

  peace,
  tj
• 

  reagan_oconnor

  NO teenage white males in leather coats gunned down. NO War on Terrorism waged.

  No "war" was necessary; the perpetrators were dead.

  In what all news anchors call the worst act of terrorism ever
  on American soil(up to that time) NO war on terrorism is waged.

  Initially, it was believed that this was an act of terrorism perpetrated by Afghanistan; only later was it determined that it was one of our own who committed this horrible crime (excellent points, teejay).

  The War on Drugs has not worked what it has done is put
  many, many, way to many young Black men in jail.

  Um, last time I checked, drugs were still illegal. Don't abuse/sell drugs, and you won't go to jail, black or white.

  I guess there is a line drawn between internal terrorists (KKK, Aryan Nation, Black Panthers) and external terrorists (Osama bin Laden). This shouldn't be the case -- any group that uses terrorism as a means to further its cause or draw attention to a belief system should fall under scrutiny; not "just the Afghans" or "just the Young Nazis."

  I'm learning that being an American is a lot harder than I thought; I have to put up with the disgusting rhetoric of the KKK, the Black Panthers, the supporters of Osama bin Laden that have dared to voice their support of the attacks in NY and DC. These people spew hatred for specific ethnic groups of people, blaming everyone else for the problems plauging their society. It's called free speech, and as long as they don't act violently, they are entitled to it.

  Teejay, I, too find it interesting that Americans wanted to find out about McVeigh, his childhood, blah blah blah, find something to blame for his horrible actions... we couldn't fathom that a normal person could commit such a heinous act.

  Mark: I don't agree with your statement that "Jr. is finishing a war that Sr. walked away from." But, that's OK. I don't have to agree. It's that free speech thing again.

  Cheers,
  Reagan

  I am the master of my fate/I am the captain of my soul.
  
• 

  conflicted

  There IS a difference between McVeigh and bin Laden. I keep hearing about how attitudes changed once we found out the Oklahoma bombing was perpetrated by an American. But the last time I checked we found out who commited that crime, we persecuted him, we put him in prison, and then we killed him. So he was an American - all that means is that he was subject to our laws and the rest of the world wasn't affected by the results of his demise.

  When Bush made his statement that "We wont differentiate between the terrorists and those who harbor them." He was declaring war upon Afghanistan - there is no other way to see it since Afghanistan has had years to extridite him for other terrorist acts. They have no intention of turning him over. That leaves our choice to a)Back off and let him go. or b)Invade Afghanistan. There is no other option - the rest of the world is taking sides already. When we go after bin Laden there will be repercussions felt throughout the globe.

  That is the differnce between McVeigh and bin Laden. That is why attitudes changed - we didn't have to start a war over McVeigh, we will for bin Laden.
• 

  teejay

  Hello, Reagan,

  You may have missed part of what Mark was saying.
  

  NO teenage white males in leather coats gunned down. NO War on Terrorism waged. -- CR

  No "war" was necessary; the perpetrators were dead. ? R

  My thoughts on his thesis is that two Americans of Middle Eastern descent, two innocents who happen to have come from the enemy-country-of-the-moment, are now dead. To many "true" (read: "WASPs" -- Mark's definition) Americans, all of "them" are the enemy and represent fair game, whether they are perps or not. That wasn't the case in mcveigh's time.

  It's a shame, but the attitude Europeans have directed toward "them" has been in vogue since the Pilgrims committed genocide on Native Americans back in the 1620s. Life in America... you gotta love it!!

  peace,
  tj
• 

  crossroads

  Teejay Thanks

  RC
  "No "war" was necessary; the perpetrators were dead."
  They are dead in this case too.
  People who fed the boys at the local Mickey D's were not shot.
  People who sold them clothes at the local Wal-Mart were not
  bombed. The Parents who housed them were not hung and
  didn't have there homes leveled.

  You go on..........
  "Initially, it was believed that this was an act of terrorism perpetrated by Afghanistan; only later was it determined that it was one of our own who committed this horrible crime (excellent points, teejay). " So is it if an American kills innocent people
  and bombs a government building it is not Terrorism, I don't
  know what your trying to say here because you go on.........

  " group that uses terrorism as a means to further its cause or draw attention to a belief system should fall under scrutiny; not "just the Afghans" or "just the Young Nazis." " Thats my point
  if we have a WAR on Terrorism why haven't OUR own Terrorist
  been rounded up and questioned. Training sites bombed we
  know where they are. I mean if it really is a War on Terrorism.

  If Bin Laden gave himself up would you be happy . Conflicted
  woud that satisfy you. Oh remember he gets a trial don't be
  too disappointed if he walks---They will never connect the dots
  all the way back to actually him. We did not go after the guy who
  wrote the book Tim had in his car.

  Finally Conflicted my music buddie you are right this is a WAR
  on Afganistan and probably Iran a war that his Dad didn't finish.
  I just want people to know that . I want the government to be
  honest and say that. But they can't and they won't . "Oh what
  a tangeled web we weave when we practice to decieve"

  "War is not the answer for only love can conquer hate"
• 

  conflicted

  Mark, my cafe commerade, you said:

  If Bin Laden gave himself up would you be happy . Conflicted
  woud that satisfy you.

  I say, "It would be a start." You see, when McVeigh was arrested that's all there was - no conspiracy, no group of followers to come to his revenge, nobody left to follow in his footsteps. If Bin Laden were to give himself and his followers up so that we are guaranteed that his reign is over, then yes I would be satisfied. I assume he would be tried by a world council or something of that sort, and I have no doubt that there will be enough evidence to prove this action came straight from him.

  Remember, he is already at war against all non-muslims worldwide, as stated by him in a declaration made in 1998 or '99. This isn't the first terrorist act he has orchestrated, just the first massive attack on US soil - one large enough for the world to take note of.

  If his reign of terror is put to an end so that it can't rise from the ashes, and bin Ladne is tried and punished for the things he has done, yes I am satisfied.
• 

  stephenw20

  Conflicted,
  if you get bin laden, before the ink is dry on his confession , a hundred more Junior BinLadens will be vying for his spot.

  Since this is surely a world of escalating technology , they will not stop at four planes and some government or economic sites.

  It would be a BLACK SUNDAY or a suicide bomber at the World Series or a large out door event. They ~live~ with this terror everyday, for them its a way of life. They don't consider what option they will have on their new car or where they might vacation or even if the meat is cooked well enough.

  Our education has just begun. If you feel getting Ben Laden or Hussein will solve this problem, look at the border of Pakistan & Afghanistan tonite. Look at the geographical placement of the country of Afghanistan... we cant just drop in for tea. The neighbors are not real receptive to a visit either.

  ANd even if that succeeded.... learning more about the
  ~ sleepers~ that were in & out of our country for the last few years and piloted the planes might point to a network we have in our own country that is careful enough to be quiet until the day they end their life and thousands of others.

  The Road map has been printed, there is always someone attemtping to improve with a shortcut.

  Its all poison, pick one.

  S
• 

  crossroads

  Conflicted---Getting Bin Laden and even all of HIS crew is
  not a WAR on Terrorism. Their are many more. Check out
  Isreal and N.Ireland and I'm sure there is more in Japan,
  Lybia and yes the U.S. Tim had supporters---maybe not
  with that one event . But in the underground of America who
  want a "REVOLUTION" he found friends and got aide moral
  and financial support. His ideas were encourged are not these
  men on are soil who are americans supporting Terrorism
  much in the same way Bin Laden is. BTW just so you
  know the organization that BIn Laden now heads was given
  3 Billion dollars to fight the Russians by our government
  "So you want a Revolution". This is not a War on Terrorism
  this is a WAR on Afganistan make know mistake it will spread
  into Iran.

  A War on Terrorism will never be won just ask Isreal, there
  will be lulls in the storm enjoy them. Listen to the music.
  Powell---Doctrine NEVER go into a war that you can't win.
  Many counties Britian, France, Ireland, Isreal have had to
  learn to live with it. Why do we Americans think we are so
  special. Why do we tell ALL others that Violence only Breeds
  more Violence---Negotiate---Negotiate--but we don't heed our
  own council. Remember this every time Isreal fights back
  more Isrealies die the next day. There is know end to terrorists
  in a small state such as Isreal do you think their is an end to
  the worlds. Do you think our two faced government can put an
  end to it. Hell they can't even rid the daily terror in our own inner cities. "Thats just the way it is"

  "War is not the answer only love can conquer hate"
• 

  Amazing

  Hi Crossroads: Good point you make.

  "If their is really a war on Terrorism being waged why in this past week haven't the Feds. rounded up all members of White Hate Groups who Terrorize, KKK, Young Nazi's, the people who want to over throw the government like Tim's crowd of which their are many. The FBI has the names they know where there sites are where they train people to fight and terrorize."

  We do need to admit that Tim McVeigh was caught, prosecuted, and then executed. So, the energy was there. But, by and large, these groups in the USA are not as radical. I think McVeigh was on the outter edge of these extremist groups.

  Notwithstanding, I think there is merit in chasing these groups down, and curtailing their activities. I am not sure anything can be done to them unless it can be proven that they broke any laws - yet. But maybe it is time to figure out a way to deal with them without eroding our basic liberties and rights. It is a serious challenge that deservee to be folded into the whole scheme of ending terrorism.

  Thanks again. - Amazing