You certainly have changed (some) for the better, sbf.
I am a "semi-apologist"!
by slimboyfat 75 Replies latest jw friends
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stillajwexelder
I have the same status as slimbofat - attend about 60% of meetings, do about 1 hour of field service per month, report about 7 hours , dont greatly attack JWs and only believe about 30% of what they teach
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jayhawk1
How do you guys do it? How do you go to meetings and listen to doctrine you disagree with about 70% of the time? That is why I left in the first place. I don't believe there is a coming Earthly paradise. I don't believe they are a special orginization. I don't believe Ted Jaracz, Fred Franz, or Joseph Rutherford will rule over me from heaven. I don't believe anything happened at Cedar Point Ohio in the 1920's that affected the universe. I don't believe that millions living in 1925 will never die. I don't believe 1914 was some special year. I don't believe the UN is some sort of wild beast and false religion rides on the UN's back. I don't believe there is a need to go door to door and give out magazines and books.
So how does any of you who go, do it? Do you realize how much time you are wasting putting on an appearance for an orginization that could care less about you?
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under_believer
jayhawk, I hate it. I hate every minute of it. It gets harder every time I go. I don't know how much longer I can keep it up. I look at my children's trusting, ingenuous faces, and I feel like a complete dick letting them absorb this stuff.
It's the worst time of my life. I have never been unhappier.
But as I said... I'm going to try this, to save my marriage and get my wife out. I don't know if I can keep it up, but I'm going to try. -
Alligator Wisdom
AlanF,
Thanks for directing your replies to my specific question.
That you were taught a more reasonable view is unusual. Perhaps it's due to your location, or perhaps to a few individuals whose views differed from those of the Society itself.
Perhaps. Though I was raised a JW in the USA for most of my life, I am now living 7000+ miles away and still find that some individuals in the congregation locally have views that differ. We always use the WTS publications, but it was only the basis for the meetings. What we felt and understood was sometimes unanimously agreed upon or sometimes we were at odds with points. These were, of course, brought out and discussed after the meeting on our own private time. I don't recall anyone making it an issue. Why? Our personal relationship with Jehovah God thru Jesus is what is taught from the Bible. The WTS may have its unique teachings, but it doesn't mean that it is infallible. Like I said, there are some in my former and current congregation that really don't care what the WTS teaches if it isn't from the Bible. And yes, some are elders, pioneers and even Gilead graduates.
That is why I don't try to tend and label the WTS and JW as the same. They aren't no matter what the WTS says. If we think they are, then we have fallen into the mindset of the WTS. I have seen and experienced that it would be foolish on my part to do so. I wouldn't dare say that JWs (as a group) are completely united in thought or beliefs. Believe it or not, there are differences in understanding or opinions among JWs when in comes to WTS doctrine. I'm sure that you already know such from your experience or investigation. Didn't you ever hear the word "doubt" come up in your dealings with individuals who are witnesses of Jehovah in pertaining to the teachings of the WTS? It isn't a sin nor a reason to be disfellowshipped when a person doubts.
True, some JW believe every utterance from the WTS. I don't blame them. Call them victims if you will. But each of us is responsible and can grow and can worship Jehovah in "spirit and truth" if that is our quest. Jehovah God will see to that.
But the majority of JWs around the world are of the opinion that categories (1) and (2) are the same, and so to question "Jehovah's organization" is to question Jehovah himself. That's the reason disfellowshipping for disagreeing with the Watchtower Society exists. In other words, this whole nonsensical view comes from the leaders of Jehovah's Witnesses, not from individual rank and file JWs.
Perhaps the majority do think so. But as you and I can agree, this reasoning or explanation trickles down from the WTS (leaders of the religion they call Jehovah's Witnesses) and not from the individual worshipper of Jehovah God.
Alligator Wisdom (aka Brother NOT Exerting Vigorously by WTS standards)
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jayhawk1
Under-believer, you are in a tough place. I don't envy you. Your position sounds slightly different from Slim's. You sound like you wouldn't go if it wasn't for the fact you have a wife to break free from it. As far as I know Slim wants to be a part of it by choice. Slim also sounds like he disagrees with a large chunk of what JWs teach. How does a guy want go to the Kingdom Hall and live with it, knowing a large portion of what is said isn't right?
I found as soon as I couldn't go along with the teachings, I just couldn't be there. It wasn't something like the UN association that caused me to leave, that discovery happened much later. It was the stupid non-biblical rules that caused me to re-think my faith.
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under_believer
Thanks, jayhawk, for your sympathy. Absolutely true--I wouldn't go if I wasn't trying to save my family. I absolutely despise going with every fiber of my being.
Slim does appear to want to be there. Whatever, I'm not gonna judge him, but I don't have any way of understanding his viewpoint, either. -
jayhawk1
No, certainly I'm not going to judge Slim for wanting to be at the meetings. Slim is a grown-up capable of making his own choices.
A pioneer once put this senerio out to discuss. "Let's say you have a glass of pure water. 100% pure water, no preservatives or additives. The water represents pure Bible truth. Now I am going to remove 10% of the water and replace it with a deadly poison. Would you drink the glass of water? Would you accept a Bible study knowing 10% of what a religion taught, came from another source other than Jehovah?"
Funny how this pioneer gave me a senerio that actually caused me to quit the JWs.
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AlanF
Alligator Wisdom wrote:
:: But the majority of JWs around the world are of the opinion that categories (1) and (2) are the same, and so to question "Jehovah's organization" is to question Jehovah himself. That's the reason disfellowshipping for disagreeing with the Watchtower Society exists. In other words, this whole nonsensical view comes from the leaders of Jehovah's Witnesses, not from individual rank and file JWs.
: Perhaps the majority do think so. But as you and I can agree, this reasoning or explanation trickles down from the WTS (leaders of the religion they call Jehovah's Witnesses) and not from the individual worshipper of Jehovah God.
Well of course! And that's exactly why Jehovah's Witnesses are a destructive cult!
Individual JWs have two choices when they disagree about some teaching: shut up or get out. But these are lousy choices. If you shut up, you're not being true to yourself and you always have to endure hearing something false being touted as "truth from Jehovah". If you get out, you're almost sure to be shunned. You want examples? Probably you already have a pile of them yourself.
While you and some of your acquaintences might have a balanced view of the Watchtower Society, and claim that you can worship Jehovah apart from it, the Society absolutely disagrees about this fundamental point. It has repeatedly taught that one cannot earn salvation from God apart from being a member of the Jehovah's Witness religion. It teaches that if you disagree -- even in your heart and never express it to anyone -- you're an apostate. An apostate only in the meaningless sense of "leaving a former loyalty"? Nope. An apostate in the sense of "abandoning God". So when a sincere worshiper of Jehovah has a sincere disagreement with JW leaders, JW teaching is that this person is "harboring private ideas" that make him an apostate from God. The Society is really calling such a righteous person evil. I'm sure you know what scripture talks about God's view of people who do that.
But you know all this. So I have a couple of questions for you: Knowing that Witness leaders have committed a number of serious crimes against the JW community and are not about to repent, do you think that they have God's approval? If not, why would a sincere Christian continue giving lip service to loyalty to them?
AlanF
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Alligator Wisdom
So how does any of you who go, do it? Do you realize how much time you are wasting putting on an appearance for an orginization that could care less about you?
Jayhawk1, maybe some are putting up appearances and maybe some aren't. Maybe at times during the meetings some agree with everything and some don't. Do you believe everything that you listen, read or see in your daily affairs in life? I'm sure you have to make that determination. So will all those who are still attending meetings of Jehovah's Witnesses. Each Christian is a free person and can behave as such (1Peter 2:16) as long as they don't make it an excuse to sin. Apparently that is what you did. You made a decision and followed up on it. Great! So each of us has the right to do so and can make our own assumptions on what is being taught. Really though, who cares what the WTS teached if it isn't from the Bible?
Some might be wasting their time. But we can't say all are wasting their time. That would be lumping together everyone unjustly.
If you read the Guardian newspaper but I found it to be a fallacy and tried to convince you otherwise to read the Hearald Tribune or were to tell you it was a waste of time, what would you say? Would it be fair for me to say the all readers of the Guardian newspaper are wasting their time? No. Some may enjoy certain articles, pehaps the food section, the comics, the editorials or even the classified ads. They may deem the newpaper reliable even though I might feel otherwise. Yes, they might have to purchase the entire paper just to get the articles they find delightful. Do you actually read the entire newspaper yourself? Can I safely say that you have certain interests on some portions and will neglect the other parts of the paper altogether. However, if you didn't find the need for the newspaper at all, then you would discontinue your subscription, right? Apparently that is what you did with the WTS. Nobody could have convinced you otherwise, right? You made that choice. Great!
Some who are attending meetings may be getting some benefit that we don't see or understand. Some are attending for family reasons. Some enjoy the utterances of the WTS. Some gain a different perspective of religion or God or the Scriptures. Each has their personal reasons. I don't think every single one has the same. At least I don't.
Best Regards,
Alligator Wisdom (aka Brother NOT Exerting Vigorously by WTS standards)