American Witnesses face difficult time over flag

by ozziepost 35 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  thewiz

  Say I side with a nation. That nation is against another nation. I am therefore aprroving the actions of one nation over another.

  My "brother" whether it is a JW or a non-JW(after all we all have a common origin). I have in effect taken a stand against my brother who is in the other nation being attacked.

  How could I then call myself their brother, when I am approving of a nation, that I agree with, that is bombing him?

  Also violence begets violence. He who lives by the sword shall parish by the sword. It is a basic fundamental principle.

  Look at Japan, if I approved of the US actions of bombing Hiroshima and Nagaski, I would basically have blessed the destruction of innocnet men, women, and children. Be real, you can't drop a bomb on two entire cities and not kill innocent people. Is that the kind of person I would want to be known as?

  My "brothers" would/could be thinking, "If he is agree with the nation of his birth, then I can agree with the nation of my birth. I can then, therefore, with Gods approval kill my brother based on patriotism, who otherwise would be a perosn I preached love and peace too." It doesn't nake sense.

  I don't believe basic christain principles get thrown out the window in time of war.
  
  It is circular reasoning, which can then have justifiable destruction on boths sides in a never ending cycle.

  It is a great tragedy some 7000 people died. Do christians show them selves to be any better when they attack in kind? It is not a war that can be fought with guns and bombs.

  The only advice I can give is act on the two laws that Jesus said, "Love God with your whole heart, soul, mind, and strength, and love your neighbor as you would yourself."

  Also, waiting, what does freedom have anything to do with taking sides? Maybe I am missing your point. I find the sentence

  Does that mean that people who don't live in relative freedom don't have God on their sides? By your logic, it does.

  difficult for me to read/understand what you are asking. It's like a double negative. People who have no freedom can still have God's blessing. Solitary confinement is the ultimate in having your freedoms taken away. I don't see how that affects ones relationship with GOD.
• 

  Tallyman

  More of TheWiz's psychobabble...

  It is a great tragedy some 7000 people died. Do christians show them selves to be any better when they attack in kind?

  Who said Christians will be attacking "in kind"?

  I've heard a lot about 'Surgical Strikes', 'Pinpoint Precision'...
  NOT flying loaded civilian airliners into tall Middle Eastern buildings loaded with innocent civilians.

  It is not a war that can be fought with guns and bombs.

  So, you need to hop on the next flight to Afghanistan or Iraq
  and take plenty of leaflets and diplomatic literature to "reason"
  with these Barbarians.

  Even the Atheists here talk about the 'Law of the Jungle'.
  And how humans are just higher Animals.
  And in this situation-
  you're dealing with the lower Animals.

  How you going to go about "reasoning" with these Animals?

  All they understand is the "language" of force.

  Maybe an Atheist could jump in here, like Seeker, and help clarify this for you, Wizzy.

  Where do you get this crap?

  The only advice I can give is act on the two laws that Jesus said, "Love God with your whole heart, soul, mind, and strength, and love your neighbor as you would yourself."

  Uh-huh.
  And don't YOU love yourself enough to know at times you have to Discipline yourself... OR EVEN Punish yourself?

  .
• 

  lisaBObeesa

  deleted because it was stupid.
• 

  Seeker

  Maybe an Atheist could jump in here, like Seeker, and help clarify this for you,

  Since I'm not an atheist, perhaps we had better begin by clarifying things for you, Tallyman.

  you're dealing with the lower Animals.

  No, we are dealing with fellow humans. Some of whom deserve to die, but humans nonetheless. Having your attitude is no more helpful than it was to pretend the WWII Japanese and Germans were subhuman. That's a good propaganda technique, but it isn't reality, and it doesn't help the situation. If you cannot understand your enemy, you can never defeat them.
• 

  bigboi

  I pretty much agree with Seeker's and Teejay's sentiments. I have no problem being patriotic and supportive of my country, just don't dictate to me how I should go about being so.
  That's the American way.

  Teejay, I undersand your suspicions relating to the events of the last couple weeks. It also struck me as just too 'neat' to use your expression. For instance, in this 'war on terrorism', the US seems to be disregarding one of it's basic principles, namely that of being innocent until proven guilty. Am I the only one who feels this way or am I simply misinformed? You see as far as I know we don't have any concrete or substantial circumstancial evidence that Bin Laden was involved. Regardless of what we might think, justice demands an amount of certainty. We cannot simply say that there is a pretty good chance that he did it so let's destroy every nation that harbors him.

  ONE....

  bigboi

  "life's a bitch a with a g-string and a twelve pack of Busch."
• 

  Amazing

  Were I still an Elder, and my children in school, I would tell them to take a flag and bring it home. Then hope that they do not have to wear it or display it. As for flag salute, that is going to be more difficult for JW kids to cope with right now. - Amazing
• 

  happytobefree

  I don't think we should be forced to show are patriotism. But we should be taught to respect what the men and women who protect us and help provide the freedoms that we share.

  I became patriotic in May of this year. My girlfriend flew from Texas to visit and to welcome her 19year old daughter back from her first out to sea voyage on the USS Truman. Even though I had not been in to a KH in 2 years, I was thinking that it was wrong to be in the military. I drove my girlfriend to Norfolk, VA and was so impressed with all of the love and proud faces of the parents who were waiting on the USS Truman to dock. I was brought to tears as I thought about the sacrifice these men, women and children had endured with their loved ones out in the waters for six months to give me (an unappreciated waif) the freedom of thinking the way I was. But what really made me appreciate our military, was when we took the tour of the Truman. Believe me - it was no picnic. The place was huge and you had to climb 2 zillion steps to get to her living quarters where 4 women lived in a closet with bed that remind you of prison. They had to share a shower with about 100 other women. Believe me this was no holiday inn. Then he daughter showed us where she does her duties as a look out person. And she described how dark it is on the water. She is a city girl and I just imagine how she had to adapt to darkness and silence.

  Anyhow after this experience, I bought an American flag and I cannot help to to tear up when I hear these partriotic tunes. The 4 of July has a new meaning, the saluting of the American flag.

  And to end I thank God, Jehovah, Allah, Budha, and any and all the other Gods, that my children are not being RAISED IN THE TROOTH and can appreciate and respect what our military is doing for us.

  Happy to be Free
• 

  Kent

  Hi Seeker

  
  

  It's not easy expressing an unpopular idea in public. Right now, it's unpopular not to be very publicly patriotic in a conformist way.

  
  I have to agree with you on this one. I have tried to be as objective as possible in this situation, and I have tried to view the case from both sides. I have placed a link to support pages on the Watchtower Observer (something I have never done before!), and I have tried to be as less provocative as possible.

  However - I do see a ølot of shit I don't like. I see fundamentalism grow up in the shadow of so called patriotism. Hindus are killed because som stupid asshole thought they were muslims, and as such trash allowed to extreminate.

  I have watched cowboy-speaches from the US President, a guy I didn't have the upper most respect for before this happened - and I certainly haven't got any more respect now. Hopefully his advicers (I doubt it in reality) are a bit smarter that he is, but I'm afraid the US and possibly NATO are going to do their mistake of the century!

  It all boils down to arrogance! A tiny part of the earths population knows perfectly well what the majority should feel!

  I'm afraid I will be temted to support the first regime proposing to place a few nukes in the middle of Israel! The US is talking, talking and talking - but are as always proving they don't give a damn about nothing but their own interests.

  What's the big difference between 1000 Palestinians being killed and a 1000 Americans? The fuckin' Palestinians are USED to die, and they should shut up - while the Americans preffer to watch people being killed everywhere else. NOT in the US!

  The US of A do not pay their debt to the UN. Does anyone know how much they owe? They support terrorism all the way - as long as it's not directed against the US. Bin Laden got about 50 billion US dollars worth of guns and amunitions, rockets and shit to do terrorism against the Russians - and he was trained by the CIA to do this. When he now turns against the US, and uses what the US learned him to hit the US itself - isn't it extremely hypocritical to complain?

  I guess most Americans and others as well should think rather closely about this shit - because no matter how we look at it - someone has their own agenda. And they don't give a shit about you and me. It doesn't matter if they're calle the Talibamn or the FBI.

  Yakki Da

  Kent

  I need more BOE letters, KMs and other material. Those who can send it to me - please do! The new section will be interesting!!

  Daily News On The Watchtower and the Jehovah's Witnesses:
  http://watchtower.observer.org
• 

  sf

  "It's not easy expressing an unpopular idea in public."

  I fully concur. Go figure!

  sKally, www klass
• 

  Tallyman

  Since I'm not an atheist, perhaps we had better begin by clarifying things for you, Tallyman.

  Wow, Seeker. Thanks for clearing that up.
  I was under the impression from our past exchanges you were Atheist.
  So you are a believer? Are you a Deist, Theist, Polytheist? What?

  - - -

  Atheist.
  Agnostic.
  Animal.
  Okay Seeker, maybe I got my 'A's mixed up there.

  You did say a couple of months back in a thread where we exchanged
  quite a few posts - that Humans were Animals.

  Correct?

  So, when that United States Government Document says that:
  All Men Are Created Equal,
  not only are you(?) acknowledging a Creator, but also are you agreeing that all men/women are created equal?

  Well, then, do you interpret that as "All Animals Are Created Equal"?

  If a Human (according to you - the way I've understood your position in past) is a Higher Animal, then wouldn't that automatically imply that there are Lower Animals...
  or "sub-Humans"?

  So, when I said, in regards to the Barbarian Terrorists who carried
  out the Horrible Slaughter on 9/11 -

  "you're dealing with the lower Animals."

  in response to Mr.Gee-Whiz's accessment of what kind of war this is
  NOT going to be... I also added:

  "How you going to go about "reasoning" with these Animals?"

  "All they understand is the "language" of force."

  (the Israelis have long understood that you do not "reason" or "negotiate" with Terrorists, and we could learn many lessons from them)

  To all that, Seeker, you then responded to me:

  No, we are dealing with fellow humans. Some of whom deserve to die, but humans nonetheless. Having your attitude is no more helpful than it was to pretend the WWII Japanese and Germans were subhuman. That's a good propaganda technique, but it isn't reality, and it doesn't help the situation. If you cannot understand your enemy, you can never defeat them.

  So, I'm having a hard time assimilating what you say above,
  in comparision with what you stated in the past.

  I think the only way to defeat this "enemy" we now face IS to understand them, and that they are Barbarians who want to destroy Civilization - the Law of which is Cooperation.

  These Terrorists are NOT about to be reasoned or negotiated with or are they going to cooperate with Civilization.

  Would you agree?
  Is that the way to undertand them as the enemy?

  So, according to what you've written here in the past,
  would that make this enemy,
  "sub-Human"?
  "lower-Animal"?
  "sub-Civilization"?

  But since you say:
  

  No, we are dealing with fellow humans.

  I would have to say you are quite ignorant of the enemy and have failed miserably to understand that enemy,
  in that what you say may fully express your sentiments,
  and it is anoble sentiment,
  but this is a war now where Idealism isn't gonna cut it.

  Reality Bites Hard, now.

  This enemy does NOT view YOU as a "fellow human"
  and wants no kinship or fellowship or dealings with you.
  They want to destroy you and your whole way of life.
  Those nice soothing hot showers and cold martinis you said you so enjoyed a while back...?

  "Fuggeddaboutit!" (if this Enemy has its way)

  If you/we learn this "language" they, the Enemy, speaks in, there is Hope to Defeat them.

  .