Say You're a Bethelite & Monitoring JWD - How Would You Feel About THESE??

by Seeker4 356 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  plmkrzy

  AuldSoul
  :Why would anyone carry a burden other than the one offered by Christ and still think they are pleasing Christ by carrying it?
  
  It will always amaze me for some reason how the most obvious reasoning is always ignored.
• 

  plmkrzy

  AuldSoul
  :Why would anyone carry a burden other than the one offered by Christ and still think they are pleasing Christ by carrying it?
  
  It will always amaze me for some reason how the most obvious reasoning is always ignored.
  
  
  
  Opr83
  :I'm an ex-elder, stepping away some years ago. Still "active" in the congregation. I do have the mindset that has been described here by many - that Jehovah will correct matters in time, that it will be a "massive" correction, and that the scriptural applications of how corruption infiltrated the Israelites for years is appropriate in this time that we are living.
  
  One of the most difficult times in my entire life was dealing with my mother, almost 2 years ago this month, regarding my issues with the wts. She is anointed and in her late 70?s now. She has on many occasions voiced her opinion about doctrine she felt was?I can?t use the word ?wrong? but how about less then accurate.
  She has always been well aware of my personal views and my reasons for ?falling away? many years ago and even blamed the society for it until 2 years ago when I made it clear that I would never go back to a society that expects me to pledge my allegiance to a bunch of old men in New York.
  It was from that moment on I was demonized in her eyes.
  We always had a close relationship over the years until now and it is only because I will not return to an organization that even she has acknowledged is wrong. Her reasoning is exactly what you said in your post. She believes it is going exactly as planned and now Satan is using me to try to get to her personally. She dedicated her entire life to this org and nothing?NOTHING is more important even if it?s wrong.

  plm
• 

  Seeker4

  Plm: Quite an experience. I'm still thinking about your mom. She so reminds me of a lot of Witnesses I knew.

  Arthur: Great post!

  So interesting how this thread has been evolving. Thanks to all of you who have sort of taken it over for a page or two, and shaped and guided this discussion. I really never expected this degree of response, but it is everything I love about this board and the Internet.

  When I started this, it just came to me, to think how these individual experiences carry such power. When I was leaving the Witnesses, and I would read experiences like the one I mentioned at the beginning, it would so resonate with me that they were totally authentic. These were people damaged by a high control organization in ways I had seen so many damaged, and probably have been damaged myself. It was the opposite of what the WTS had led me to believe - that those who left would be bitter and angry and liars. What I found, and continue to find, are caring people who gave their all to an organization that failed to be what it arrogantly claimed to be. When the blinders start to come off, sure there is anger, but also there is such sadness that the WTS so completely failed them. Failed us.

  Thanks to all who have shared their experiences and wisdom in this thread, especially to the new ones brave enough to come out and make your presence known here. A special thanks to AlanF and Auld Soul for your contributions, as always.

  S4
• 

  becca1

  PLM:
• 

  becca1

  PLM: Have you ever asked your mom if she has any input into what we read in the publications? Does she get a thought and write to the GB? Does she later see her thoughts expressed in print?

  After all, she is part of the "faithful and discreet slave" class.

  My parents are under the impression that this is how it works.

  Your insight would be very helpful
• 

  becca1

  seeker4: you used the word "damged". I, for one, certainly feel damged. I hope we can somehow overcome the damage done to us and get others out soon enough so their damge can be reversed.
• 

  AuldSoul

  AuldSoul: Why would anyone carry a burden other than the one offered by Christ and still think they are pleasing Christ by carrying it?
  Plmkrzy: It will always amaze me for some reason how the most obvious reasoning is always ignored.

  I guess it could be argued that the reasoning is only obvious to those who choose to see it. Since they are afraid to see it, they shut their eyes. They publicy adopt organizational restrictions on fair-minded evaluation with a deafening "Aye!" and a thunderous applause, while clapping themselves on the back for standing so firmly for what is, in actuality, wrong.

  What can you call someone who chooses to shut their eyes so that they cannot see if not "blind"? By their choice, they choose to let the blind lead them into pits of dense darkness. And with their eyes tightly shut to their actual surroundings, they wonder at what must be very bright light...they are sure they would see the light if they only opened their eyes...but since they agreed to keep them shut...they see only the darkness they stumble through.

  They have chosen a path.

  Proverbs 4:14-19
  Into the path of the wicked ones do not enter, and do not walk straight on into the way of the bad ones. Shun it, do not pass along by it; turn aside from it, and pass along. For they do not sleep unless they do badness, and their sleep has been snatched away unless they cause someone to stumble. For they have fed themselves with the bread of wickedness, and the wine of acts of violence is what they drink. But the path of the righteous ones is like the bright light that is getting lighter and lighter until the day is firmly established. The way of the wicked ones is like the gloom; they have not known at what they keep stumbling.

  Isaiah 5:20
  Woe to those who are saying that good is bad and bad is good, those who are putting darkness for light and light for darkness, those who are putting bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!

  The organization compares its practice of shunning to the Israelite sentence of stoning. The effect from the standpoint of the congregation is similar. Some who have become shunned have committed suicide, demonstrating that the effect to the punished is worse, in some cases, than even death.

  But the comparison is unfair for one simple reason: Stoning was a sentence resultant of a public trial witnessed by anyone who cared to witness it, Jew, proselyte, alien resident, or Gentile visitor.

  Jehovah's Witnesses commit horrible acts of injustice that even the Sanhedrin of Jesus' day did not commit. True, they had a nighttime trial. But it was still public. Anyone could witness the entire proceedings. We have minutes of what transpired because it was public. Where in the Bible could anyone look to get the idea that secret trials and public sentencing is something Jehovah approved? All phases, including deliberation, were public. What good work is ever made secret? So, why the secrecy?

  I want any JW elder to PLEASE explain this to me. Without intending any disrespect to any posters here, in my opinion any elder who serves on a Judicial Committee supports this heinous practice, gives the nod to it, and condones it.

  For that matter, even if we regard the passage at Acts 15 as some kind of sanction for a select group of decision makers it must be acknowledged that the minutes of the meeting were exposed publicly. It was not an instance of the Governing Body convening privately, reaching a decision, and informing everyone of the decision. We can read what transpired in the meeting itself. Something is happening deserving a coverup if it MUST take place in private.

  Respectfully,
  AuldSoul
• 

  opr83

  auldsoul,

  You asked some specific questions of me, and I have been reading so much of this thread that I have not had time to reply. I'd like to ask those reading this thread, however, to reflect on something that haunts me as I wander through this maze of ideas. We tend to think (as JW's) that there is clear, concrete beliefs, laws, orders, principles, that we should adhere to, that we are directed to follow, and that direction comes from a body that we accept as "God's mouthpiece". There is no way around it, our belief has to be centered around the premis that the WTS is "God's chosen avenue of enlightenement." As my wife would say "sounds alot like Catholisism to me!"

  The alternative, as many would espouse (and I believe you implied, Auldsoul) is that the Organization known now as Jehovah's Witnesses is false, because error is found. But is that the only alternative?

  Is the bible so clear that we can say what is false and what is true given what we see in the world today? Do we really have the knowledge, the insight from God, to know how to gather ourselves together as believers in Christ? Is it important to have that "rigidity" that the FDS would have us follow? Or, as some of us believe, "principle" is just that, a loose connection with laws and orders hinted at in scripture, but not clearly defined.

  To be sure, there are black and white answers to issues found in scripture. But, there are many others that are not as clear, and CLEARLY over the years have been distorted by the FDS, GB, Writing committee, etc, etc. Go back in the older writings from the WTS, and you will find an EMENSE gap in what we believe today versus what was believed in the first 75 years of the 20th century.

  How do those sincere ones (and there are many on this board) reconcile all of those issues? Or, should we just say "it is a good book, and I'll follow what I want, and be kind to others but not questions their beliefs?" Should we attempt to guide others at all? If not, what's the meaning of "go therefore and make desciples, teaching them...."? Where do I personally go with that? I cannot be presumpteous enough to believe that I have all the right answers (even though those that know me think that I believe that, right Peg?)

  It is a very, very confusing and complicated issue, this "religion" thing. God had the scriptures written for a purpose. Perhaps we are, as a world society, still trying to figure out what that purpose is, and He has hopes that we'll get it right before we destroy ourselves.

  (BTW, Auldsoul. I took no offense to your asking. I've found your posts stimulating, as well as several others on this thread. Im glad someone alerted me to take a look. )
• 

  peggy

  NO....Opr83...I know as well as YOU...that you DO NOT have ALL the RIGHT answers! I WISH YOU did......with ALL my heart! You are...as they say....IN IT.....YOU are searching for answers in the place where YOU once thought they could be found.....I....I am searching elsewhere.....one day we will come together and compare notes!

  Peg
• 

  AuldSoul

  opr83,

  I agree with the intent of your post.

  There is no way around it, our belief has to be centered around the premis that the WTS is "God's chosen avenue of enlightenement."

  Yes. Please keep that unambiguous statement of yours clearly in mind while considering one question:

  If they are God's chosen avenue of enlightenment, it is encumbent upon them to clearly present proof of their choosing. Have they done so?

  They currently claim that C.T. Russell was being used by Jehovah before 1879. Was he? How would we know? What measure would you use to determine whether C.T. Russell was being used by God? What measure do they use? Do you consider their measure to be proof?

  They claim that the Governing Body was appointed by holy spirit. Was it? What proof do they have of that claim? Do you consider what they call proof to be actual proof?

  opr83, you are EXACTLY right in your assessment that, "There is no way around [this premise of a chosen mouthpiece]." It is without question the centerpiece of the JW religion. From that center flows every other doctrine. And you cannot support the statement that they were chosen. But don't feel too badly, they cannot support the statement, either.

  They claim that even though Jehovah had been using C.T. Russell since before 1879, Jesus had to search out who his brothers were after 1914. Does that make any sense whatsoever? If Jehovah was using C.T. Russell, Jesus knew who his brothers were. If the anointed have always been somewhere on earth, Jesus knew who his brothers were. He didn't need to search for them.

  But even at that, they claim that he chose the Faithful and Discreet Slave in 1918 but they needed to be refined so he let them get sent to prison over the sedition they were encouraging in their pubilcations. After that, he appointed the Faithful and Discreet Slave over all his belongings in 1919. Except...in 1919 the Faithful and Discreet Slave was still considered to be C.T. Russell (singularly). That is what the publications at the time taught. They didn't teach otherwise until 1929 at the earliest and the class wasn't clearly explained until 1932.

  How could the Faithful and Discreet Slave be given authority over all Christ's belongings wthout them even being aware of it for some 10-13 years? And the Faithful and Discreet Slave never appointed a Governing Body over itself, so from whence did the authority of the Governing Body derive? From the FDS, from themselves, or from God? If the FDS had been apopinted over ALL Christ's belongings in 1919 and Christ's belongings includes the Governing Body, then we should be able to see clear evidence that the FDS has authority over the Governing Body.

  On this last point, appealing to Acts 15 does no good as a rebuttal according to JW theology. According to the JW theology, at Acts 15 the FDS had not even been identified as such, much less appointed over all Christ's belongings. Either the FDS has authority or not. Do they?

  What authority does elderly Sister Frail have in the organization?

  Or even old Brother Smalltown, the kindly old elder who is now on the infirmed list after spending his entire youth as a Regular Pioneer and actually growing congregations into existence in the rural countryside of the United Kingdom (because, as you know, nearly all the colporteurs are dead), what authority does he have over anything. If he disagrees with the Governing Body, can he "[refuse to submit], no, not for an hour" and instead arrange to meet with them as Paul did in Acts 15, to "see about this" matter? (Galatians 2:1-5; Acts 15:1-11) Can he insist on unanimity of outcome, instead of simply majority vote by some arbitrary ratio? Can he insist on others besides those assembled, for instance the "whole congregation", also needing to be unanimous in the decision? (Acts 15:22)

  You know that the FDS has no authority over anything at all, and yet you somehow defend the belief that they do have authority as God's mouthpiece.

  I am not criticizing you or intending this as harshness in any way. I just don't get it. But, I see that your reasoning is identical to my father's on this issue, so I desperatelywant to get it. He has so much confidence in their choosing that he has cut me out of his life over his confidence. He earnestly believes that confidence in those men he has never met equates to confidence in God. I cannot seem to bring myself to empathize with that perspective. I have never had that perspective, even when what I thought was a faithful JW. Please, try to explain it.

  Respectfully,
  AuldSoul