Armageddon?
No such thing.
Andy
JW-apologists - and who survives Armageddon?
by Hellrider 37 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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fullofdoubtnow
Although I don't personally believe that there is going to be an armageddon nowadays, I think the wts is guilty of dishonesty in that they are trying to water down their message. They have always thought that only baprised jws and their minor children are the only ones with a chance to get through armageddon. I've heard them say well, god is the judge before, but that's only for public consumption. I've heard speakers say from the platform that "no unbaptised flesh will survive armageddon".
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Hellrider
Oh, I love it when they write stuff like this:
***w98 8/15 20 Strengthening Our Confidence in God's Righteousness***
18. With complete confidence in Jehovah's righteousness, we need not worry about finding answers to questions like: 'How will babies and small children be judged? Might it be that a large number of people will not yet have been reached with the good news when Armageddon arrives? What about the mentally ill? What about...?' Granted, at present we may not know how Jehovah will resolve these issues. He will do so, however, in a righteous and merciful way. We should never doubt that. In fact, we may be amazed and delighted to observe him resolve them in a way that we never even considered."In other words, he`ll do it fast and painless, like a mafia-boss with a conscience. Perhaps a bullet in the neck. And all the jws at the Sunday meeting reads this, nodding their head, not realising what is really said in the paragraph. Poor, poor people.
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greendawn
Death to the pixies , interesting quotes however the fact remains that the average JW considers it an article of faith that all non JWs will be executed in a fire and brimstone image. IOW the WTS contradicts itself oscillating between two opposing views. What you present is a little known alternative view that is surprisingly humane and balanced since it comes from an org of extremes.
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Death to the Pixies
I've heard speakers say from the platform that "no unbaptised flesh will survive armageddon".
Reply: I think it is a debate-able question, hence why you can find support in JW articles that up-hold the what I have found to be the average JWs understanding of this issue, namely a less dogmatical view. I have Herd a former JW DO turned GB member make similar observations.
Death to the pixies , interesting quotes however the fact remains that the average JW considers it an article of faith that all non JWs will be executed in a fire and brimstone image. IOW the WTS contradicts itself oscillating between two opposing views. What you present is a little known alternative view that is surprisingly humane and balanced since it comes from an org of extremes.
Reply: Ask your average JW and report back, I have found the "I do not care to judge, God will handle all matters in a fair and just way" answer quite often. It is not dishonest as some have claimed. As the WT itself says "It is pointless to speculate" if a person has had a fair oppurtunity. What if the person did study with JWs , but the JW he had contact with was an A-hole? What if he had strong pressure put on him not to accept the message while he was weak in faith?
At some point a person will have to join "true Christianity" to gain eternal life (or to put in your terms, be a robotical follower of the borg :>)) but this does not discount the fact that not necessarily all non-JWs will be detroyed AT armageddon (ie before one could even gain eternal life). We have WT support for this opinion, so it is not dishonest to give this opinion at a door.
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Hellrider
A closer look at DTTPs reply and quotes follows shortly. The problem with the Society when they are presenting the more "humane" view, is that it is simple (to the awake reader) to see what is between the lines, and it is also pretty simple to read the background of the quotes, from the quotes itself:
*** w76 6/1 347-8 Look Forward with Confidence in God's Righteousness and Justice ***
16. Observe, however, that Jesus did not leave it up to humans to determine who are the "sheep" and who are the "goats." How fine that is! For, if we humans were responsible to judge, how could we properly evaluate factors such as: How much of an opportunity did a person have to hear and accept the good news? Did his genetic, family or religious background affect his response? What is his heart condition?does he love righteousness? If he is a child or was born mentally retarded, how much bearing should family or community responsibility have on the matter??1 Cor. 7:14; Deut. 30:19.The strongest of DTTPs examples, imo. However, we have to ask ourselves a question: WHY did the WTS feel that they had to write this? What is the context of the article? What does it mean to "hear and accept the good news"? The point is, we all know what the WTS means, when they write "hear and accept the good news". They are, by that sentence, referring to their own ministry, their own preaching work. In other words, hearing and accepting that good news (the exact version of christianity that comes out of the Watchtower) is vital for a mans salvation (on planet JW, that means surviving Armageddon, of course). And the question raised in the quote, "If he is a child or was born mentally retarded, how much bearing should family or community responsibility...etc" also implies that these things may be considered, by Jehovah desert-war-god to be "valid excuses", but it certainly isn`t for sure! !!
17. Unquestionably, not one of us is qualified to weigh these, and perhaps many other, vital factors and principles. We could not reach judgments that are 'perfect, righteous and upright.' (Deut. 32:4) Hence, why should any of us become needlessly involved with trying to decide who will survive and who will not? If we say, 'I think these people in this certain situation are "goats" and will perish eternally, but those in that other category will live,' are we not making ourselves judges? (Jas. 4:12) Rather than trying to decide whether a certain person, family or group of persons fits the description of the "goats" or not, we can be content to leave the matter in the hands of "the Judge of all the earth."?Gen. 18:25.
And what is the background for this quote? Clearly, it is the fact that all jws believe that only they (possibly with a very few exceptions) are the only ones that will survive Armageddon. Then we must ask ourselves, why do all the jws believe this? The answer is: Because the WTS said so, in numerous other articles and books, some of which has been quoted here. They are speaking out of both sides of their mouth, but it is clear, even in the more "liberal quotes", that to be absolutely sure of surviving Armageddon, you have to be a jw.
18. God's judgments are not merely a matter of applying strict, unfeeling justice. His mercy, compassion and love are involved. As the psalmist David put it: "He has not done to us even according to our sins; nor according to our errors has he brought upon us what we deserve." (Ps. 103:10) Actually the only wages that imperfect, sinful humans deserve is death. (Rom. 6:23) Yet, in his mercy and compassion Jehovah has purposed that the message of salvation be spread extensively so that humans might gain life. He wants them to do so. (Ezek. 33:11; Isa. 55:6, 7) If God's mercy, love and compassion have been displayed so consistently down to this time, and we have benefited from them, cannot we be absolutely certain that they will come into play, too, in the judgment at the conclusion of the system of things? Yes, the survivors will be absolutely right when they proclaim, "Jehovah God, the Almighty, true and righteous are your judicial decisions."?Rev. 16:5-7; 19:1, 2.
And we all know what "Yet, in his mercy and compassion Jehovah has purposed the message of salvation..." means. It means, join the jws or be toast on the day of wrath.
*** w95 10/15 28 What Future for the Sheep and the Goats? ***
23 Many are exposed to our message as we preach from house to house or informally. Others may learn of Jehovah's Witnesses and what we represent in ways unknown to us. When judgment time arrives, to what extent will Jesus consider community responsibility and family merit? We cannot say, and it is pointless to speculate.And the background of this quote, is of course the fact that all jws (and the WTS knows this, because they are the ones that taught them this) believe that only they will survive Armageddon.
*** rs 47 Armageddon ***
What will happen to young children at Armageddon?
The Bible does not directly answer that question, and we are not the judges....and this silence on this particular issue speaks a thousand words, a thousand filthy words. The silence here indicates that the desert-war-god is most probably going to kill them. Like grandma used to say (and she got this from WT-litterature, probably sometime from the 50s, that old hag): "Children ride on their parents tickets". In other words: All my classmates at school were gonna be toast.
***w98 8/15 20 Strengthening Our Confidence in God's Righteousness***
18. With complete confidence in Jehovah's righteousness, we need not worry about finding answers to questions like: 'How will babies and small children be judged? Might it be that a large number of people will not yet have been reached with the good news when Armageddon arrives? What about the mentally ill? What about...?' Granted, at present we may not know how Jehovah will resolve these issues. He will do so, however, in a righteous and merciful way. We should never doubt that. In fact, we may be amazed and delighted to observe him resolve them in a way that we never even considered."Background for this quote: The fact that all jws believe that only they will survive Armageddon, and the WTS is certainly not softening up on that belief when they write "how will babies and small children be judged? Might it be that a large number of people will not yet have been reached with the good news...", because, by that statement, they are saying that IF you have heard "the good news" (been visited by a jw), and rejected him/her, then you are toast. In other words, to be sure of "salvation" (surviving A-day), you have to "belong to Jehovahs organisation". So basically, even these softer quotes are in fact strengthening the individual (and collective) jw-mentality that you have to be a jw to be sure of survival.
It should be apparent that we simply are not certain what Jehovah will do in regard to the above mentioned scenarios of people, their lives and their extent of exposure to the message God gives. Does this mean that the above mentioned ones will be resurrected even if they were to die at Armageddon? Possibly so. Nothing in scripture would conclusively deny that possibility. Is it possible these ones will survive Armageddon? Possibly so. Again, nothing in scripture would demand otherwise.
Possible. What does "possible" mean? It is possible that I one day will win millions in a lottery. But not very likely.
One might wonder why God would resurrect some that he had put to death at Armageddon. Why not bring them through the battle onto the new earth? As we said, he just might do that, but, on the other hand, he may choose to "cleanse" the earth and establishing that pure and righteous nucleus of faithful worshippers and possibly even resurrecting the "righteous" first before ever introducing the "unrighteous" back to the earth for their education and chance for salvation.
Cool. Killing them twice, every mafia-boss` dream.
What of some the comments made in the literaure that appears to say something different? For instance:
*** You Can live Forever (1982, 1990) p.255 ***
Do not conclude that there are different roads, or ways,
that you can follow to gain life in God's new system. There
is only one. There was just one ark that survived the Flood,
not a number of boats. And there will be only one
organization--God's visible organization -- that will
survive the fast-approaching "great tribulation." It is
simply not true that all religions lead to the same goal . .
. . You must be part of Jehovah's organization, doing God's
will, in order to receive his blessing of everlasting
life...It is true that we believe that there is only one ORGANIZATION that will survive the great tribulation and Armageddon. We believe that TRUE Christiaity IS the organization. To us, they are synonymous. However, if he chooses to cause the survival of some INDIVIDUALS for the reasons mentioned above, that statement is still true, because those ones would survive, not as members of any organization, but as individuals. Organizationally speaking, there is but one that will survive. The other organizations of the world and the other religious organizations will not. The quote was primarily in contrast to other religious organizations. That statement does not preclude the possiblility of God allowing certain individuals to survive as is mentioned above.
Cool, some individuals might survive. How many? 5? 10? 20? This is what it sounds like to any jw that would read that quote. Anyway, your explanation here is no good. The end of the WT-quote says it very, very clearly, and it is intended and pointed at the indivudual jw, and the (physical) life of the individual jw, and has nothing to with the survival of the "organisation". It is vital that you are part of ...Jehovahs organisation to receieve...LIFE. this only means one thing,and we both know it.
And yes, everyone must become a member of that organization in order to receive everlasting life, which says nothing more than everyone MUST JOIN THEMSELVES TO TRUE CHRISTIANITY, but, please keep in mind, we do not subscribe to the belief that JUST because you survive Armageddon, you are automatically granted eternal life. That doesn't happen to anyone on earth until the end of the thousand years, so you must keep that comment in its proper perspective .
Ah, of course not, you have to behave too, when you`ve gotten over to the other side. But that`s not what we are discussing here.
The Watchtower, September 1, 1989, p. 19: "Remaining
organized for Survival Into the Millennium":
Only Jehovah?s Witnesses, those of the anointed remnant and
the "great crowd," as a united organization under the
protection of the Supreme Organizer, have any Scriptural
hope of surviving the impending end of this doomed system
dominated by Satan the Devil. ...For survival into the
Millennium under the Greater Noah, Jesus Christ, they have
to remain organized with the anointed remnant, "the chosen
ones" on account of whom the days of the "great tribulation" will be cut short.You have to understand again what this is saying. Just because the scriptures do not hold out a specific hope for anyone but true Christians does not rule out the potential for others to survive. There is a difference between saying there is no "scriptural" hope and there is NO hope. In other words, the scriptures do not address their survival so we can not point to a passage or verse and say there is your scriptural hope of survival if you are not an active worshipper of Jehovah. On the other hand the scriptures do hold out a "scriptural" hope for those who are activer worshippers of Jehovah. But one should be careful to not make an article say more than it was intending to address. Would we as Jehovah"s Witnesses take from this article that all the unbaptized, undedicated children of Jehovah"s Witnesses will not survive the end? Clearly it was not addressing that aspect of survival, just as it was not addressing the aspects that were mentioned in the other articles I quoted above. One article can balance the information in another and that is the case here. You must discern between generalization statements and specific ones.
Oh ok, 5 or 10 others might survive, I get it. Seriously, do you really believe that jws read this quote the way you claim that they are supposed to? Give me a break. And do you seriously believe that the WTS wants, or expects, people to read that passage they way you claim that they are intended to? No way. And we both know it. Your explanation here doesn`t hold water anyway. The end of the quote is aimed directly at the individual jw. His days might be "cut short" if he does not belong to the organisation. Pretty simple, really. Be a jw, or die.
Ask your average JW and report back, I have found the "I do not care to judge, God will handle all matters in a fair and just way" answer quite often
Yes, if you are an outsider, especially if they suspect that you are an "apostate" (or as we would say in my country, a "motstander" ("opposer").
DTTP! What was it that speaker (was it Frantz himself?) said at that dc sometime in the U.S. in -75? It was something about how jws shouldnt feel bad about their kids not celebrating birthdays, christmas and things like that, because the end was sooo close, and the children of jws would survive into the 1000-year reign. His exact words were "poor little Johnny. The only kid on the block that lived past 1975". I have heard the audio-recording myself, but I cant remember who exactly it was that held the speech. Someone else might help me out on it, Alan or DH?
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Death to the Pixies
Hello Hell-Rider, I do not know why but I found your language funny (in a good way), obviously I would word it different but...you know. Let me just re-focus you to the last paragraph in my last post:
At some point a person will have to join "true Christianity" to gain eternal life (or to put in your terms, be a robotical follower of the borg :>)) but this does not discount the fact that not necessarily all non-JWs will be detroyed AT armageddon (ie before one could even gain eternal life). We have WT support for this opinion, so it is not dishonest to give this opinion at a door.
The timing is important, the thread here is dealing with "Armageddon" not the granting of eternal life on earth. At some point after Armagedon what you colourfully say may be true, but not necessarily AT Armageddon, there is definite wiggle room under JW dogma to "let Jesus judge" those AT Armageddon..
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plmkrzy
We were taught to believe that only jws (in good standing) and their underaged, unbaptised children, would have any chanse of surviving Armageddon.
We just came home one evening from a meeting and my parents, looking pretty mentally tormented, approached me with their concerns that if I was not baptized before Armageddon arrives, any minute now, I was soon going to be old enough to be destroyed. I think the age mentioned at that particular meeting was 13? I was 11 or 12 at the time and almost old enough not to get trough Armageddon riding my parents.
yep...one HAD to be baptized in a swimming pool or no deal.
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Cherish
Hi Hellrider, Ive just recently started bible studies and this question arose reasonably early in my first study. This is my understanding of it.
That both the righteous and un-righteous will be resurrected (Acts 24:15) She stated not everyone will be ressurected those that have died and gone to Gehenna (a symbolic place of eternal destruction) will not be but those in Hades or Sheol (mans common grave will be.
Edit* Also that it will take a further thousand years to to sort out from the peole ressurected who will stay and who will experience the "second death"
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plmkrzy
:Edit* Also that it will take a further thousand years to to sort out from the peole ressurected who will stay and who will experience the "second death"
Did your study conductor inform you though that you will now be expected to get baptized and become a JW otherwise you risk being destroyed at Armageddon and THAT will count as your second death? If you die during Armageddon it counts as the second death because you were officially given sufficient knowledge to decide. If you are destroyed at Armageddon and have no knowledge of the truth THEN that would count as your first death, you can be resurrected...learn the truth...then make your choice.
That?s what I was raised with but I haven?t seen all the new light.