by Dansk 46 Replies latest jw friends
Apologies for not reading this thread through. Personally, I'm not afraid of death. I suppose I think of those who have gone before me, and being 'dead' would put me in the majority.
I do believe that 'Cultists' tend to attract people affraid of death. A bit like a poor man's 'Cryonics'
"Everybody wants to go to heaven but nobody wants to die". It is fear of nonexistence - annihilation -
Ian you didnt read MY reply...I Said I want to die. Truly I do. I dont want to suffer as I die but I want to get off the world & since I cant stop the world & get off...I have to wait. It is not only budda that says you have to work out your own salvation JWs say it also....
To me the concept of religion serves two purposes:
In the first instance it's merely a hand pointing people to the Divine, without and within, much as the hand pointing to the moon. Sometimes it does the job better than at other times, but notheless, such is its purpose. While some might fear death, causing them to approach religion with that motive, the ultimate aim will be to pass beyond the vail within this life, hence so many references to rebirth from the earliest ages of religion, including baptism as an initiation rite (and I'm not at all being Christian-centred in these comments).
On "connecting with the Divine" it serves as an opportunity for communal internal and external expression of that connection, or "worship" as some call it. On this basis I would state that death holds no fear to me albeit I have no particular penchant to pain, and I remain a deeply religious man (albeit a little unorthodox).
As for hypocrasy, I guess that depends on what you expect of those who are religious. Personally I think humans are just humans, regardless of how well that maintain their own personal standards. Few people intentionally thwart their own conscience. More often than not we externally impose our own exacting standards on others, regardless of whether we hold to those peculiar standards ourselves.
For example, should a Satanist be monogamous? Can a Christian be polygamous? Must a Buddhist believe in reincarnation? IMHO our response to each of those three questions will be a caricature of what we believe each to represent.
LT, of the "gnostic leanings" class.
Grace I DID read your post about you wanting to die, but you said you weren't religious. Sorry, love, but you ARE!
Riverofdeceit wrote:
why are people ok with believing Jesus will save them but are afraid to be called religious
I believe he is right and, Grace, I think that applies to you (and others who have posted similarly, of course)
Ross:
At the outset I wrote:
I've been thinking about the above question a lot lately! I see so many so-called religious people being hypocritical to the religion they profess to have faith in. They may say "Hey, I'm only human", as if this excuses their behaviour.
You replied:
Personally I think humans are just humans,
Isn't that the excuse I referred to?
You also said:
Few people intentionally thwart their own conscience.
Sorry, but I disagree! Let's say a devout male Christian accepts that having sex outside of marriage is wrong, but then he takes a lovely girl out, she invites him back to her room, it's all quiet and she offers him her favour! I don't know many men who would refuse. More often than not, our consciences only return to "normal" after we have conducted the deed.
For example, should a Satanist be monogamous? Can a Christian be polygamous? Must a Buddhist believe in reincarnation? IMHO our response to each of those three questions will be a caricature of what we believe each to represent.
I can't answer the first question because I don't know enough about Satanism. Regarding the second, there are some people who profess to be devout Christians and believe in polygamy - some Mormon sects, for example - so I can't say either way. Regarding the third, in general Buddhists do NOT believe in reincarnation (Tibetan Buddhists do), they believe in rebirth. There is a subtle difference. In reincarnation "you" are born again in a different body. In rebirth it is an "essence" of you that is reborn not "you" in your entirety. It has been likened to the flame of a candle. Is the flame that started down the candle the same flame that finishes it? The answer is, of course, it is neither the same (because bits will have been burnt off it) nor is it different (because there will be some aspect of the flame that was the same as in the beginning).
Looking forward to seeing you next month, where we can have some good discussions on this type of subject!
Ian
If you want a donkey to move forward, dangle a carrot in front of it's nose.
For a lot of people, a get out from the 'death clause' is their carrot.
Does that make sense? To summarise:
The donkey = You
The person trying to get control of the donkey = Religion
The carrot = Never having to die
Hi Ian, my answer is ...No and No
Ian:
You seem to miss my point entirely . From your example it seems that you're working from your own subjective stereotype of what a given belief system should or should not hold as true (albeit it is one that many people hold in common)
Further, you actually make my point, in that you acknowledge that there are some Buddhists who believe in reincarnation (I hadn't missed that this isn't your personal belief, as I saw you write something about it last week, hence my use of that particular example ). Within the same group reference you accept that there are differences of opinion regarding beliefs and standards of behaviour.
You cite the "human" explanation as an excuse, but to some it's a reason, not an excuse. Just because you got it in first and dismissed it doesn't weaken it any. Regardless of an exoteric identification with a given group, individuals will not neccesarily hold to all the mores or beliefs of that group, and indeed why should they be bound to? Because others feel they should?
The whole basis of your initial argument is founded on groups of people having to maintain a particular standard enforced upon them either from within the group or from without, whether from their contemporaries or a Deity.
Specifically in the case of Christianity, ironically the higher standards are usually imposed from without, because usually those within are acutely aware of their own foibles. I include in that judgemental group those who follow the Christian religion but would confess that they aren't Christians in the esoteric sense.
Within the same irony is that those who are not Christians in the esoteric (broadly "gnostic") sense usually remain fearful of death and attempt to work for their "salvation. Are they hypocritical when they fail to meet their own exacting standards? Maybe, but they're still only human.
Back to your original premise, you are of course entirely correct. IMHO many people adhere to some religious belief and occasional practices precisely due to the fear of death, as you suggest. It's just not all of them, and I strongly suspect that the group on this board is not representative of this faction.
It's funny how the term "religion" seems to bring out the highest ideals in people, whether they can meet them or not, huh?
I've been thinking about the above question a lot lately! I see so many so-called religious people being hypocritical to the religion they profess to have faith in. They may say "Hey, I'm only human", as if this excuses their behaviour. However, they still maintain even a tenuous hold to their faith and may occasionally or frequently go to church and have their kids baptised - but is this to hedge their bets? So, after some real soul-searching, are YOU religious because you're afraid of death?
Hello Ian. Death is around the corner for all of us. Some are a little more concious of it than others. My father never spoke of spiritual, godly matters. Until the last year of his life when he was dying of prostate cancer. Then he gravitated to a fellow who was popular here in the states a few years ago, Johnathan Edwards, his schtick was people passing over to the other side and he claimed he had an ability to communicate with them. The eternal soul was my fathers hedge, riding the fence. I suppose if I dont die in an accident but get a disease I will spend my last days trying to find answers to the unanswerable. Truthfully I have already looked for the answers in a healthy body. I cant find any. I wish there were some. I am dissappointed. At this point Im not religious. I dont want to die. But Im not thinking of death.
Have a good day Ian
Grace I DID read your post about you wanting to die, but you said you weren't religious. Sorry, love, but you ARE!
Watch my fingers Ian .I AM NOT RELIGIOUS!!!! You bloody men!!!! The WT trained you well in that area!!!!! LOL !!!!!always trying to tell women what they are or are not. In Websters dictionary it describes religousas PIOUS! (not)devout(not)I sometimes I have a fight with God.. belonging to a monastic order (dont)scrupulous! good job you wont ever met me lol( not)
But I still love ya even if your trying to make me somethin I AINT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!yes I am batty!
No, for me it is more the fascination with the spiritual dimension of man as opposed to indulging in a culture of an instinctual nature where everything is done for the here and now, the appeal of the immediate.
