How was the WTC attack any different than...

by Seeker 21 Replies latest jw friends

Seeker

...the attack on Jericho by the Israelites?
Yes, I know, this is controversial, but let's think about it. We've been saying all week how the JW concept of Armageddon is so horrible, for it teaches that God is about to do on a large-scale what we saw in New York and Washington last week. Yes, it is a horrible teaching. But let's think backward, to Bible accounts of slaughter. Was it really all that different?
bin Laden warned America weeks ago that this was coming. He has long been an enemy of this country, and made no secret of his disdain for our 'infidel' status in his eyes. The loss of life last week, so awful to us, was cheered by bin Laden's supporters, who view this country as the Great Satan, and condemned by their God. We are dogs in their eyes, deserving of death.
We rightly are repelled by such thoughts, for they are inhuman and inhumane. But consider the account of the destruction of Jericho, just one of many such accounts in the Bible.
Israel sent spys warning Jerico that destruction was coming. They were Jericho's enemy, and made no secret of their disdain for their pagan status in their eyes. When the walls of Jerico fell, the loss of life was cheered by the Israelistes, who viewed Jereico as deserving of destruction, and condemened by their God. They were dogs in their eyes, deserving of death.
Serioulsy, what is the difference? In each case you had religious extremists who used their religious ideas to condemn someone else, attack them in God's name, and rejoice at their destruction. You can imagine neighboring nations back then looking on in horror at this attack on innocent people.
Today, the Christians will viciously condemn what happened last week in this country, and vow revenge. But they will also support and defend all the atrocities that the Israelites did in the Bible. "That's different," they say, "God was behind them." Yeah? Well that's what bin Laden says today, so skip the excuses. Nobody wants to hear about a bloodthirsty God who supports the death of innocents.
(Ignore that there is no archaeological support for the fall of Jericho -- assume it is true. Also, if you claim that the Jerichoites, or Canaanites, deserved to die for their lifestyles, just remember that many of the innocents who died in the WTC probably did things that Christians would condemn. Did that justify their fiery death last week?)
So? How do Christians defend the Bible when it contains accounts of atrocities very similar to what happened last week? How can anyone be horrified by last week's events, and discuss Bible events in a calm voice over breakfast?
Norm

Hi Seeker,
Good post, I agree with what you say. During the week the US has been dealing with the WTC disaster, Israelies have killed over 20 people in today's Jericho. A young mother of two had her bedroom wall penetrated by a shell fired by an Israeli tank, which of course was targeting "terrorists" firing upon apartment buildings housing families and children.
Moxy

one really happened. the other didnt.
mox
Kent

Bravo Seeker! Every religious person will have to say this was jusr what to expect - or they are hypocrites!
After all, "nobody" dies. The JWs are cheering and longing for the slaughter of 99,9% of the earths population? This is nothing at all!!!
Yakki Da
Kent
I need more BOE letters, KMs and other material. Those who can send it to me - please do! The new section will be interesting!!
Daily News On The Watchtower and the Jehovah's Witnesses:
http://watchtower.observer.org
Moxy

ok, sorry. i missed the part where you said assume it was true. in that case, heres the difference.
first off, the spies were NOT sent to warn jericho. they were sent to spy. no warning was needed, you see, because the fate of jericho should have been obvious to any righteous-hearted people, like Rahab. the news of israels exodus from egypt and their conquest of lands west of the jordan had spread thru-out jericho. the fact that these stories were unsubstantiated rumour and probably wildly exagerated by the time they got there was no excuse. the stories were from jehovah and that was all the inhabitants of jericho should have needed to know. if the leaders of jericho had persuaded the people otherwise by any means, well, that was their own damn fault. they had plenty of opportunity to sell their life to the israelites. well, at least all the people who had any contact with the israelites did, which was just one actually. but thats beside the point. who said prostitution doesnt pay?
other differences:
the israelites were more thorough than the terrorists, picking thru the rubble like the search and rescue teams in manhattan, not to rescue, but to devote every man, woman, child and animal to destruction. (6:21)
they pilfered the ruins too, taking anything valuable they could find. they werent always allowed to do this, but sometimes jehovah needed a little cash. (6:24)
they cursed the land itself. no one could rebuild the city ever, or his children would die. (6:26)
mox
GinnyTosken

Seeker,
I've wondered about this myself. Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world. Small Afghanistan was able to turn away mighty Russia. Now a small band of men has toppled two great towers and dealt a blow to the Pentagon. Surely Allah must be blessing them? We should all immediately repent and submit to Allah. How long will a faithless generation keep demanding more signs?
It is so sad. I thought the days of holy wars, crusades, and witch hunts were over.
I thought CoolBreeze's post of an essay by Richard Dawkins was excellent in pinpointing the mindset that is behind such attacks. It is also an issue very pertinent to this board, yet it is sliding off, read only 55 times:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=12072&site=3
It's a tall story, but worth a try. You'd have to get them young, though. Feed them a complete and self-consistent background mythology to make the big lie sound plausible when it comes. Give them a holy book and make them learn it by heart. Do you know, I really think it might work. As luck would have it, we have just the thing to hand: a ready-made system of mind-control which has been honed over centuries, handed down through generations. Millions of people have been brought up in it. It is called religion and, for reasons which one day we may understand, most people fall for it (nowhere more so than America itself, though the irony passes unnoticed). Now all we need is to round up a few of these faith-heads and give them flying lessons.

Facetious? Trivialising an unspeakable evil? That is the exact opposite of my intention, which is deadly serious and prompted by deep grief and fierce anger. I am trying to call attention to the elephant in the room that everybody is too polite - or too devout - to notice: religion, and specifically the devaluing effect that religion has on human life. I don't mean devaluing the life of others (though it can do that too), but devaluing one's own life. Religion teaches the dangerous nonsense that death is not the end.
(bolding mine)
I understand that people are angry and hurt. It does seem ironic that the first solution to leap to mind is "God Bless America," vengeance, and retribution.
To fill a world with religion, or religions of the Abrahamic kind, is like littering the streets with loaded guns. Do not be surprised if they are used.
--Richard Dawkins
Ginny
Rex B13

Hi Seeker,
I agree that (at times) we do not value life much more highly than some of the other countries that are obviously rogue states. I would cite abortion as one evidence of this. However, most modern, civilized governments follow the 'doctrine of justified war' that was developed in Christian nations. Did you know that people from 62 different nations died in this atrocity?
Every major and many minor religions and non were represented. I must also note that 'Jihad' is a teaching unique to Islam (and a couple others?).
http://www.christian-thinktank.com/qamorite.html
This site does a good job explaining some of your questions about the various military campaigns by the Hebrews. Also, you really should take note that this constant reference to O.T. events is inspiring some anti-Seminism in this forum. I know that is not your intent but take a look at some of the responses that follow these kinds of threads.
Also, you cannot condemn a whole belief system because some of it's alleged adherents were just showing their true nature, fleshly depravity. Paul explains this quite well in Romans (7 or 11).
Later,
Rex
Seeker

Rex,
Thanks for responding. I went to your web site and read what he said. Here are his summary points, with my comments:
a. The annihilations are judgments.
Right, God judged Jericho, and Allah judged America (according to the terrorists). Same thing.
b. These judgments are for publicly-recognized (indeed, international and cross-cultural in scope!) cruelty and violence of an EXTREME and WIDESPREAD nature.
Right, God said those in Jericho were committed heinous crimes, and the terrorists feel that America is the Great Satan, full of infidels who violate Allah's laws.
c. These judgments are preceded by LONG PERIODS of warning/exposure to truth (and therefore, opportunity to "change outcomes").
Not in Jericho's case, nor in America's. There was little warning, and in Jericho's case there was no possibility for a changed outcome. Only Rahab's family was given a chance.
d. Innocent adults are given a 'way out'
In Jericho, only Rahab was warned, and she immediately acted accordingly. No other adults were given even a chance, let alone a way out. Same thing with the WTC.
e. Household members share in the fortunes of the parents (for good or ill).
True in Jericho, true for any family members in the WTC.
f. Somebody ALWAYS escapes (Lot, Noah, Kenites)
Would be nice if God could have allowed more to escape...
g. These are exceptional cases--there are VERY, VERY few of these.
So it's OK to commit VERY, VERY few murders? Or VERY, VERY few rapes?
I dunno, I don't see how his points excuse the slaughter. It really boils down to what I originally said, that those people had it coming because of their way of life. But that's precisely how the terrorists feel about America and Americans!
Rex B13

Hi Seeker,
Maybe you don't have a lot of time tonight? You skimmed over a lot of info in the explanation. I know it is a long essay. Do you really want any answers or is your mind already made up?
>
a. The annihilations are judgments.
Right, God judged Jericho, and Allah judged America (according to the terrorists). Same thing.
Rex: Simplified beyond belief.
b. These judgments are for publicly-recognized (indeed, international and cross-cultural in scope!) cruelty and violence of an EXTREME and WIDESPREAD nature.
Right, God said those in Jericho were committed heinous crimes, and the terrorists feel that America is the Great Satan, full of infidels who violate Allah's laws.
Rex: No, we are attacked for supporting the U.N. establishment of the nation of Israel. If we abandoned Israel, we would not be a target. Are we men or weasels? Here is what begins the anti-Semitism.
c. These judgments are preceded by LONG PERIODS of warning/exposure to truth (and therefore, opportunity to "change outcomes").
Not in Jericho's case, nor in America's. There was little warning, and in Jericho's case there was no possibility for a changed outcome. Only Rahab's family was given a chance.
Rex: You didn;t read the history here.
d. Innocent adults are given a 'way out'
In Jericho, only Rahab was warned, and she immediately acted accordingly. No other adults were given even a chance, let alone a way out. Same thing with the WTC.
Rex: The account is somewhat limited in scope, is it not? You cannot say for certain and again, you did not read the history.
e. Household members share in the fortunes of the parents (for good or ill).
True in Jericho, true for any family members in the WTC.
Rex: Family from 62 different countries, none of which seem to sacrifice their children and virgins to a idol filled with fire or in a wall for good luck, eh?
f. Somebody ALWAYS escapes (Lot, Noah, Kenites)
Would be nice if God could have allowed more to escape...
Rex: Who are YOU to judge God?
g. These are exceptional cases--there are VERY, VERY few of these.
So it's OK to commit VERY, VERY few murders? Or VERY, VERY few rapes?
Rex: No, this shows the mercy God extends even to the most vile that humanity has to offer. You again failed, this time skipping the example of Nineveh.
I dunno, I don't see how his points excuse the slaughter. It really boils down to what I originally said, that those people had it coming because of their way of life. But that's precisely how the terrorists feel about America and Americans!
Rex: READ the info, open your mind, quit with the generalizations.
Rex
Seeker

Right, God judged Jericho, and Allah judged America (according to the terrorists). Same thing.
Rex: Simplified beyond belief.

Simplified, but not inaccurate. If you disagree, please explain where you think my statement was wrong.
Rex: No, we are attacked for supporting the U.N. establishment of the nation of Israel. If we abandoned Israel, we would not be a target. Are we men or weasels? Here is what begins the anti-Semitism.
Wrong. We are infidels, and bin Laden thought that from the moment we entered Saudi Arabia during the Gulf War. Israel could be abandoned and he would still hate us. I merely identified the root cause, not an additional cause that you brought out.
Not in Jericho's case, nor in America's. There was little warning, and in Jericho's case there was no possibility for a changed outcome. Only Rahab's family was given a chance.
Rex: You didn;t read the history here.
Who else was given the chance other than her household?
In Jericho, only Rahab was warned, and she immediately acted accordingly. No other adults were given even a chance, let alone a way out. Same thing with the WTC.
Rex: The account is somewhat limited in scope, is it not? You cannot say for certain and again, you did not read the history.
I thought all scripture was inspired of God so that we could be completely equipped. I've read the history, that's what it says. If you know otherwise, say so.
Would be nice if God could have allowed more to escape...
Rex: Who are YOU to judge God?
So you feel those who died at the WTC deserved it?? Wouldn't it have been nice if God allowed more to escape?
So it's OK to commit VERY, VERY few murders? Or VERY, VERY few rapes?
Rex: No, this shows the mercy God extends even to the most vile that humanity has to offer. You again failed, this time skipping the example of Nineveh.
Don't jump around the way he did -- stick with Jericho. The guy made a point that God doesn't do these atrocities that often, as if frequency makes a difference.
Rex: READ the info, open your mind, quit with the generalizations.
Provide me with specific rebuttals for the case of Jericho, and maybe we'll have something to talk about. That web page, even though I dealt with it, meandered over various slaughters. Let's stick to just this one, and you tell me how the Israelite view of those in Jericho was fundamentally different than the terrorist view of America.

How was the WTC attack any different than...

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