Who is Jesus? Is he God? (page 3)

lovelylil

Bo peep,

I read that book too and loved it. Lilly

LittleToe

Why does believing in the Divinity of Christ have to deteriorate into a conversation about the Trinity?

Jesus is a character in the bestselling compilation of mythology "The Bible". He is considered by many to be an integral part of the work, but makes his first appearance more than halfway through, in the "New Testament", a controversial add-on to the original tome. Remarkably, there are four accounts of his life, all similar but contradictory. It is believed the editors chose these four from dozens of contenders because they best matched the theme of the rest of the book. These four accounts contain some clever nods to the original "Old Testament" with the life of Jesus neatly paralleling events in the lives of some of the earlier characters. The "New Testament" also contains several letters which mention Jesus, but appear to be speaking of a completely different person.

Jesus is probably the most popular character from the Bible, and has fan clubs all over the world. Jesus merchandise is widely available and comes in a variety of sizes, shapes and styles (the most common being representations of his execution) and some cities have even erected statues in his honour.

Inquisitor

Why does believing in the Divinity of Christ have to deteriorate into a conversation about the Trinity? - Little Toe

Well, why does reference to Cadbury make us think of chocolate?

Why does mention of Mcdonalds lead to discussions about fast food (junk food?), obesity and corporate hegemony?

It's inevitable word-association.

And besides, BelieverInJesus began the thread with arguments for why Jesus Christ is God, makes the assertion that the anti-Trinitarian stance taken by JWs proves they are misguided, and concludes with "What do you all think?".

He/She was begging for it, LT.

INQ

lovelylil

funnyderek,

I am sorry to say you are mistaken to think Jesus does not make an appearence until the NT. Jesus is in the OT many times it is just that he was not given the name Jesus until his birth on earth. Some ancient people who saw and spoke with the pre-human Jesus were Daniel, Isaiah, King David, Abraham and I know there were others.

I am currently compiling a list of scriptures that reveal Jesus in the OT and will probably post when I am done. BTW Jesus was prophesied about (his coming to earth) in the OT so some think he is not mentioned in the heavenly realm in the OT, but he was. Lilly

fjtoth

Lilly,

Some ancient people who saw and spoke with the pre-human Jesus were Daniel, Isaiah, King David, Abraham and I know there were others.

How can that be? Hebrews 1:1, 2 states: "In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son."

Aren't you denying the uniqueness of Jesus' ministry and revelation of truth? The writer of Hebrews pointedly contrasts "the past" with "these days," "our forefathers" with "us," and "the prophets" with God's "Son."

The writer does not say that Jesus spoke with Daniel, Isaiah, David and Abraham. Instead, he goes on to say that those men and others heard God speak through the voice of angels. Jesus never was an angel, such as JWs claim. That is why the Christian message is more glorious and requires greater attention: "For if the message spoken by angels was binding, and every violation and disobedience received its just punishment, how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him." (Hebrews 2:2, 3)

Frank

funkyderek

lovelylil:

I am sorry to say you are mistaken to think Jesus does not make an appearence until the NT.

No, I'm not.

Jesus is in the OT many times it is just that he was not given the name Jesus until his birth on earth. Some ancient people who saw and spoke with the pre-human Jesus were Daniel, Isaiah, King David, Abraham and I know there were others.

No they didn't. They spoke with YHWH, who is a completely different character with a different name, nature and personality.

I am currently compiling a list of scriptures that reveal Jesus in the OT and will probably post when I am done. BTW Jesus was prophesied about (his coming to earth) in the OT so some think he is not mentioned in the heavenly realm in the OT, but he was.

That's what I meant when I wrote that whoever invented the New Testament character of Jesus put in "some clever nods" to the OT. Jesus wasn't prophesied in the OT at all. A messiah was prophesied and when Christians finally got around to writing the story of Jesus' life, they included "fulfillments" of as many of these prophecies as they could think of, even ones that probably weren't even meant to be prophecies.

sinis

If jesus was such a thorn in the side of the Jews and Romans alike why are there NO historical documents, outside of the bible, that name him? No court documents, no historian documents (unless you include the forged works of Joesphus by Eusebuis), no Qumran docs, nothing. Doesn't anyone else find that odd?

greendawn

He was actively preaching for only a short time about three years according to the gospels and he didn't achieve much of a following since the Jewish authorities of the time were also very hostile and threatened to expel from the synagogues those that believed in him. Also his message was mild and not politically rebellious against the Romans. That's why he doesn't appear in secular history.

Mondo1

BelieverinJesus,

You wrote:

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I have come to the conclusion that Jesus is the Son of God, and at the same time Jesus is God. By using the NIV, KJV, NAS, and NLT I am overly abundantly convinced that Jesus Christ is God. That's VERY important. Even using the NWT, which has been changed to take away the deity of christ, you can still see who Jesus is. There are many points I'd like to make. First being in Genesis 1:1-4...this explains that God created everything. Then in John 1:1-4 it explains that God is Jesus, and Jesus who is God created everything.
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The NWT doesn't "change" anything simply because it doesn't agree with those other translations. Just about any passage of Greek can be translated in various ways. Context plays a role in how we choose to translate it. Even if we accept that though, that does not make Jesus Almighty God any more than the fact that the Jewish king is spoken of as "God" in Psalm 45:6. The Greek and Hebrew words translated as "god" carry with them different senses.

Further, John 1:4 does not tell us that Jesus created everything, but it tells us that God created "through" Jesus. There is a difference. It is clearly shown in the Greek.

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Along with his attributes are identical to God, They both forgive sin, they both give life, they both control the water's with their word. Jesus say's "....I AM" when asked who he is. God is called " I AM" God is also called "The alpha and the omega." Jesus is also called that in the book of revelation. God also tells us to not worship anybody or any idol apart from him. Jesus accepts worship when he triumphantly enters Jeresulam and when he is resurrected and with the disciples. The disciples worship him. He doesn't stop him.
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The words "I am" are nothing significant. Jesus uses those words in normal speech. Others use them as well, included the blind man in John 9:9 and others. Jesus is in fact not called "the alpha and the omega," though he is called "the first and the last," though he is called such as "the one who became dead and is alive forevermore." Which means that he is the first and the last in the resurrection.

As for worship, Jesus indeed receives it, but he receives it because God exalted him, not because he is God. This is explicitly defined in Phil. 2:9-11. It does not contradict God's command not to worship others, part of the Old Testament law that we are not under, because God is the one that commands that Jesus receives it. (Heb. 1:6)

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God also say's all other god's are valueless in Isaiah. So wouldn't that make the watch towers NWT bible contradictory what they have written in the NWT John 1:1 saying "the word was "a" God." Wouldn't that make Jesus valueless? The NWT is pathetic! I've even learned some basic Greek and can see the flaws in the NWT. What a shame.
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Actually, in the context of Isaiah's statement, he is speaking of idols. You cannot take texts out of context and get a proper meaning, and this is exactly what you have done with your claim about Isaiah It has nothing to do with Jesus. The NWT is not pathetic and obviously your "basic Greek" is failing you, for if you knew more than "basic Greek" you would know that the NWT is perfectly acceptable in rendering John 1:1c as "a god," which has a syntax that parallels Acts 28:4 with "a murderer."

Mondo

Who is Jesus? Is he God?

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