1874 a date the Lord chose?

by lovelylil 97 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  RR

  You guys are so out of touch. As to dates? let me ask you, are there ANY dates in the Bible? How do we know when Jesus died, when the flood came, when Jerusalem fell?

  As to 1874, Russell never preached that the Lord returned in 1874 prior to 1874, and then spiritualized it when it didn't come to pass. He learned about the date in 1876 from Nelson Barbour, when he read The Herald of the Morning journal. Barbour had been preaching the Lord returned invisibly in 1874 and that the ending of the gentiles would be in 1914.

  As to getting dates from the pyramid? That's ridiculous. The dates were already prominent within Adventist circles before Russell got involved with them. The pyramid was simply an added when to corroborated what the scriptures already stated.

  RR
• 

  lovelylil

  RR,

  Thanks for making that point that Russell borrowed the dates 1874 and 1914 as well as the teaching of the invisible return of Christ from Nelson Barbour. This is something that JW apologetics have been saying for years but the WT has denied it. It is good that you as an expert on the Bible Student movement have now verified that this is correct. As you know the WT bible and Tract Society currently teaches that Russell was the only one as the FDS that the Lord revealed this information to. They state that since ONLY he had this correct information, it substantiates the fact that the Lord chose him and his bible students as his only true followers. Now we see from the information you have just given, they are incorrect. As Barbour had these teachings prior to Russell.

  James was correct too on this thread when he stated that Russell borrowed these beliefs from the adventist movement.

  As far as the pyramid measurements supporting these dates can you provide any references other than from Russell to support this view? Also I would appreciate it if you can show me where in the bible itself it says we should look to the pyramid for dates.

  Lastly, we know there are dates recorded in the bible and you seem to be trying to link them somehow to the date 1874? I am not really sure were you are going with this - are you saying these dates point to 1874? If this is true and you can show me how they do so, I will certainly look them up. I've been trying to get this information from any bible students for three years now. I know the WT tries to use a timeline of sorts but their timeline has been proven as false. Can you provide any additional information on this? Thank you in advance. Lilly
• 

  RR

  As far as the pyramid measurements supporting these dates can you provide any references other than from Russell to support this view? Also I would appreciate it if you can show me where in the bible itself it says we should look to the pyramid for dates.

  Well, if you don't accept the dates, than its a waste, isn't it?

  Lastly, we know there are dates recorded in the bible and you seem to be trying to link them somehow to the date 1874? I am not really sure were you are going with this - are you saying these dates point to 1874? If this is true and you can show me how they do so, I will certainly look them up. I've been trying to get this information from any bible students for three years now. I know the WT tries to use a timeline of sorts but their timeline has been proven as false. Can you provide any additional information on this? Thank you in advance. Lilly

  Can you show me ONE date recorded in the Bible?

  RR
• 

  Carmel

  1874 was a follow-up exigetical rendering when the 1843-44 Millerite prophecy failed to fulfill the literalists hope for a "return" in which Jesus decended from the sky with rank upon rank of angels. Russel along with thousands of others looked to find a new date that would fulfill those unfulfilled vain imaginings. The Millerite exigesis was shared by hundreds of other christian ministers. He simply was more charismatic and knew how to get written up in local and regional news papers so most references to the great dissapointment refer to Bro Miller and friends.

  What most in the west don't know is that the Muslims had an almost identical prophecy, both Sunni and Shite, of the return of the 12th Imam and the Quim (sp?) that matched perfectly with the 1844 anticipation. They too expected the literal fulfillment of Jesus return or the ten year old Imam.

  None of those expectations were met and the Jews still await the Messiah, the Christians Christ, even the Buddhists, Zoroastrians and Hindus have the same expectation of the "return" during the same time period.

  Carmel
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  RR

  Your problem Carmel, is that you're associated Russell with the Millerite movement. And why Russell was influence by Adventist. He only spent about 2/3 years among them, and his association was AFTER 1874, not before!
• 

  Steam

  Later, the learned Pastor Russell taught that Jesus really came in 1874, but the "real end" would be 1914. All based on solid bible chronology.

  There are 45 chronological links in the Bible which Pastor Russell used to figure his dates. Plus one secular reference from Ptolemy's Canon; which brings chronology down to AD1. Then the 1874 years to finish the 6,000 years from Adam being evicted from the Garden.

  The Great Pyramid was there before we had the Bible and measurements taken in it substantiate the chronology that Russell gave.

  You are showing your ignorance of truth. Why not study these things before you make wild statements?

  Steam Psalm 50:5
• 

  lovelylil

  RR,

  I'll answer your questions when you answer the question I have been asking you for a long time now. What biblical support is there for the date 1874? You keep saying Russell's date was supported by the bible but I have yet to see where.

  Steam,

  Welcome to the board. It is so nice of you to come here from the BS forum and offer some support for RR. Whatever reason you joined it , it is nice to have you brother!

  You said that Russell taught Jesus really came in 1874? - RR already told us that he borrowed that teaching from Barbour.

  you also said - Russell taught the "real end" would come in 1914 - we already know he did but that the "real end" did not come. Because in his books he said we armegeddon would be over by 1914. So how can you still say these dates are correct when the event he said would happen in that year did not happen?

  You said - there are 45 chronological links that point to Russell's dates being correct? Now we are getting somewhere. This information I would be very much interested in viewing. Would you be so kind as to do three things for us so that we can learn this awesome truth too?

  1. Please list the 45 chronological links that point to the year 1874

  2. Please show biblical proof that these chronological links are supposed to be linked together to form a timeline. What I mean are biblical verses that support taking these verses out of the books they were written for and linking them together with verses from other books to form this timeline.

  3. Please give scriptural support that our Lord Jesus wanted his followers to figure out the time and date of his arrival.

  If you would offer this information steam it would be greatly appreciated. Thank you in advance and Lord Bless, Lilly
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  lovelylil

  Carmel,

  That was great information, thank you. I had no idea about the Muslims, I guess you can learn something new every day. Lilly
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  lovelylil

  steam,

  One more thing, I almost forgot to ask. You said that Russell already had the date 1874 and that the pyramid merely gave more support to this date? As you know most people believe Russell got the date from the pyramid itself and not before. I asked RR for a reference that supports that Russell had been using the date prior to ever using the pyramid diagrams but he has not furnished me with one yet. Can you give me such a reference so that I can verify this fact?

  Thank you. Lilly
• 

  RR

  In order to prove to yourself what I am saying, you will have to get your hands on copies of "THE HERALD OF THE MORNING" which was published by Nelson Barbour. On the cover of each issue he pointed to 1874 as the presence and 1914 as teh ending of the gentiles. In Russell's own words in a Watch Tower article, he gives some background how in around 1876, he came across Barbours "Herald" and saw how we claimed the Lord returned invisibly in 1874, he contacted Barbour and asked for a sit down, the rest is history. In 1877, Barbour wrote "THE THREE WORLD'S" which explained the Plan, using Barbours Chronology (the manner of the Lord's return) and Russell's Object of the Lord's return (to bless ther world).

  The Herald and Three Worlds were both published before The Watch Tower journal and the Studies in the Scriuptures, none of these writings contained any great pyramid references and their measurements. That did not come about till the 1889, when Russell wrote the chapter on the Great Pyramid, and even then relying on what pthers said, he sent the manuscript to Piazzi Smythe for his "approval" and the correspondence was published in that chapter in Volume II.

  RR