There is no such thing as Agnosticism. Agnostics do not exist!

by nicolaou 92 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • dedpoet
    dedpoet

    Though I am firmly in the atheist camp myself, I think it is possible to be agnostic. In fact a few years ago I would have probably described myself as agnostic when I first left the jws. It seems kind of a cop - out belief, or rather lack of one, to me nowadays, a non - committal way to think. I think Bertrand Russell summed the position of an agnostic up pretty well:

    An agnostic thinks it impossible to know the truth in matters such as God and the future life with which Christianity and other religions are concerned. Or, if not impossible, at least impossible at the present time.

    I suppose when you drift away from a total, fanatical belief in the highly demanding god of the watchtower, it's kind of hard to lose that "feeling" that there is "something out there", and agnosticism is a sort of comfort zone that just stops short of total disbelief. That's what it was for me anyway.

    dedpoet

  • Sparkplug
    Sparkplug

    agnostics vs atheists

    I compare that to a person who says, " I'm not antisemitic, I just haven't met a Jew I like yet".

    I'm not an atheist, I just haven't met a God I ilke yet.

    I feel that agonstics could be atheists

    Lets put emphasis on this part. "I just haven't met a God I ilke yet" This is pretty funny to me.

    Question. Is it so wrong with a person being so unsure in either direction that they have a catagory called agnostic? It is as if that by stating that the catagory does not exist that the option of having time to choose or work it out or even better yet, just be has been taken away. there are a lot of things that you don't want to be a fence rider about, but is this one of them? Really? If I say God exist and I feel that, I am lying if i lie then that is a sin. If I say God does not exist then I am not so sure about that. I did spend most of my life believing. It is a pretty hard spot to be in or to say because a lot of my friends and loved ones believe and even people I find highly attractive believe and I cannot lie and say I do believe just to fit in better with them all. So really I do not feel either field in either direction strong enough to be a part and active member of it.

    Would it make the world more comfortable if I said I am undecided? I tried that and by being undecided both sideds used this as a means to try to win me over. The athiest used that doubt and the believers used that ounce of doubt in the other direction. Why do I have to choose a team on this. If God does exist and really can read my mind and heart and made me, he must know I am painfully honest with myself and even if I succeed in betraying my mind for a bit, it will clear and I will have to face the facts.

    As it stands I cannot clear my head on this and don't want to be a hypocrite. I want to really decide one way or another. So if I should die today and there is a God above he truly would according to what I have learned understand the mind screwing I have gone through and still love me. If there is not, then it would not matter and I have lived my life as a good and honorable person. As upright as I can and I did the best with what I had.

    Why does anyone need to have me as a number in their pool. There has to be a catagory for undecided people and the saying it does not exist does not make that group of people not exist.

  • AlmostAtheist
    AlmostAtheist

    Dictionaries never seem to capture religious ideas very well. I doubt a person that calls himself an "evangelical" or "fundamentalist" would completely agree with the official definition of the word. Likewise, "atheist" and "agnostic" don't always match up with the folks that claim them.

    Dave

  • Dansk
    Dansk

    Well, Dave, with an alias like yours YOU should know! LOL

    Ian

  • Sparkplug
    Sparkplug

    Hey Dave! I was thinking that the people who coined the name or definition were not able to possibly take in all of the variables either. So should people who are in the mix, but at lack of a better phrase come up with anything better? Any ideas? I like humanist myself.

  • AlmostAtheist
    AlmostAtheist

    >>Well, Dave, with an alias like yours YOU should know! LOL

    :-) I tried to use "NearlyCompletelyAtheistButHonestlyUnableToSayForSureSinceYouCanNotProveItButItSeemsMostLikely", but there's some stupid limit on the length of a user name. So we take what we can get, right?

    >>I like humanist myself.

    Yeah, that's a good one! Better than atheist, since it doesn't say, "I DON'T believe in God", it says "I DO believe in people, like you and me". Very positive.

    Dave

  • PoppyR
    PoppyR

    I disagree, without getting into the pedantics of the EXACT meaning of the word.

    To the average person an Atheist has definite ideas that god does not exist. An agnostic is not convinced either way.

    These are two seperate camps. I am definitely unsure as to the existence of God, I now feel there is not enough evidence either way to sway me, but I am open to a change in viewpoint, especially considering how far my viewpoint has changed this past year!

    However I would not consider myself an atheist and dont see the point in someone else insisting I do so just to make up more numbers in their camp. Neither do I consider myself a fence sitter, they are my beliefs. And as someone who has been told what to believe my whole life, I wont put up with that any longer.

    Poppy

  • dobbie
    dobbie

    same here poppy!

  • startingover
    startingover

    I've posted this before and here it is again.

    THE HAPPY HERETIC

    Judith Hayes
    June 2001


    There Is No Such Thing As an Agnostic

    Before you send your angry emails, please finish reading this piece. The amount of confusion and anger generated by the atheism/agnosticism debate is outrageous. The confusion actually arises because of a misunderstanding of the word "atheist." Atheism is such a simple concept. I am always amazed at how complicated people want to make it. That little word, atheist, has received a bad rap and a reputation it does not deserve. It says nothing about politics, morals, character, kindness or anything else. It simply means you do not acknowledge a god. It does not mean, as so many insist, that you know for a fact that there is no God. I have yet to meet or correspond with any atheist who can state categorically that there IS NO GOD. Maybe there is. I haven't a clue. Nor does anyone else. There may be a big blue god with feathers out there somewhere. But I haven't seen anything yet that is even remotely persuading.

    [NOTE: I'm struggling, as usual, with the problem of when to capitalize the word "god." As a name for an agreed upon entity, it should of course be God. But when pluralized or preceded by an article, it should be a god or several gods. This problem alone tells us quite a bit. That is, that there is no agreed upon definition of that ethereal, elusive concept - God. Or god. Or gods. Whatever.]

    What ought to be a fairly simple, straightforward task - defining the word "atheist" - has turned into a philosophical nightmare requiring postgraduate courses and a thesis adviser. And it isn't just the religionists who have screwed things up so royally by heaping undeserved, malicious baggage onto that little word. (Atheist = immoral, communist scumbag.) No, we nonbelievers are wrangling over it ourselves, and the whole thing is just plain silly.

    I rely on dictionaries and encyclopedias like everyone else. But they merely reflect our current usage of words - whatever is in vogue at the time. If you go back in time you'll find some interesting twists of meaning on now commonly understood words and ideas. Language evolves, and we are witnessing it right now. My 1968 Random House Dictionary quite clearly shows the word "network" to be a noun and nothing else. Period. No confusion, no room for misunderstanding. Yet today we use it all the time as a verb. In a mere 25 years that word has been completely transformed. We say, today, that we network with one another. So think about this:

    Any dictionary printed before 1870 would not even have the word "agnostic" in it. How can that be? How could all those centuries of philosophers not have needed that word? (Aside from the fact that it's meaningless, which is a good reason for not bringing a word into existence), why did no one feel the need for that supposed concept? That should give us pause right there. For all the centuries that people have thought and wrote about the existence or nonexistence of God, no one felt the need for the word "agnostic." Schopenhauer, Kant, Hegel - on and on, never needed that word. Doesn't that tell us something?

    So when my current dictionary explains that, "An agnostic does not deny the existence of God and heaven, for example, but rather holds that one cannot know for certain if they exist or not" I agree that it is a correct definition. But I must add that it also describes every other person on the planet Earth. And, therefore, as a label it is meaningless.

    No one, not I nor you nor the guy standing next to you, can know for certain that any god or gods exist(s). It is impossible for anyone to claim that we can be certain about something that:

    1. Cannot be seen, touched, heard, or in any way detected by the human senses.
    2. Cannot be detected by any non-human means such as X-rays, CT-scans, MRIs (Magnetic resonance imaging), sonograms, infrared sensors or anything else known to science.
    3. Is held to be invisible, nonmaterial, and everywhere at once, defying the laws of nature.
    4. Despite #s 1, 2 and 3, is supposedly able to communicate with human beings.
    5. Supposedly has no beginning and no end.
    6. Can only be understood by literally blind faith.
    7. Has mutually exclusive properties. That is, it spoke to the Prophet Muhammad and it did not speak to him; it sent Jesus as Savior and it did not send Jesus as Savior; it is going to send a Messiah in the future and it is not going to send a Messiah in the future; it demands human sacrifices to keep it calm and it does not demand human sacrifices; and so on and so on and so on, covering all the concepts thus far attributed to the world's many diverse gods.
    8. Cheats at cards.

    Okay, Number 8 doesn't count. But other than that it's quite an impressive list, is it not? And in light of it, I think it's fair to say that such a proposition, that of knowing there's a god, represents, at best, a wild guess. The list demolishes the idea of "knowing" God. You can believe all you want, but you cannotknow. And so, to that extent, we are all agnostic. We, all of us, atheists, Christians, Jews, Hindus, Wiccans, and so on, cannot be certain of this thing (these things) that are called God (gods).

    The major problem in these discussions lies in the hair-splitting that goes on about whether or not an atheist simply does not acknowledge a god, or goes further and actually says there is no God. Atheists cannot make this claim. However, when we atheists emphatically state that we do not believe in a god we will sometimes say, "Oh, bull! There is no God!" But what we're talking about are the human creations such as Jupiter, Thor, Jehovah, Krishna, Jesus, Allah and so on - the gods we've been spoon-fed since childhood but still find thoroughly unconvincing. So we lump them all together and pronounce them all nonexistent, and here is where the confusion comes in. When we claim nonexistence for a god we mean OF THOSE SO FAR OFFERED AS CANDIDATES.

    No one can claim a god absolutely does not exist unless he can claim infinite knowledge of the universe. I have never heard any atheist make this assertion. In fact, if any atheist reading this can make the certain claim that no god does or could exist, and can back it up, I would like to hear about it. It would be fun to meet someone who possesses infinite knowledge of the universe. This is not hyperbole. I mean it. Without infinite knowledge of the universe you cannot possibly know if there is a god or not. And, if you're planning to send just such a "proof" you must include exact knowledge of how the universe began and how or if it will end. Without that explanation your "proof" will prove nothing.

    Even my hero, the late Carl Sagan, spoke of atheism as a position that couldn't be justified because no one can provide any "compelling evidence," as he put it, that a god does not exist. Neither I nor any atheists I know make the claim of having "compelling evidence against the existence of God." Nor are we required to have such evidence! The burden of proof lies squarely with those who claim knowledge of the existence of God. If you so claim, you must prove. I do not believe in a god. That position requires no demonstration or "proof." If you state that there is a god, you are making a claim that absolutely requires demonstration.

    No one can provide any "compelling evidence" that leprechauns do not exist. So what? Does that mean then that we have a-leprechaunists and agnosti-leprechaunists, with the former claiming leprechauns don't exist and the latter withholding judgment until all the evidence is in? No. You either do or you do not believe in leprechauns. So it is with gods.

    People who glom onto the complicated label "agnostic" do so for the uncomplicated reason that it seems to imply reason and open-mindedness, whereas the label "atheist" seems to imply stubborn close-mindedness. Both assumptions are wrong. The word "agnostic" means literally "without knowledge" or, more simply, "I don't know." But it is really just a cop-out word for atheist. It is a word that society has not yet blackened with foul adjectives. It is safer to utter in mixed company. However, it's impossible not to "know" whether or not you acknowledge a deity. If you do, you know it. If you don't, you know that too. And if you don't, you are an atheist - a person without theistic beliefs. To say, "I am an agnostic" is to say, "I don't know whether I believe in God or not." Which is nonsense.

    If you consider yourself an "agnostic" here's a good thought experiment. Consider all the gods you know about, one by one. Write them down or tick them off on your fingers, but think about them one at a time and ask about each, "Do I believe that this entity was and/or is a god with supernatural powers?" One by one, ask the question. Zeus, Thor, Quetzalcoatl, Brahma, Allah, Jehovah - ask the question for each and every god you can think of. You may not answer, "I don't know if they are gods or not" because the question is asking do you believe it? You will know the answer to that. And of course if you answer yes to any of them you are acknowledging a deity, meaning you have theistic beliefs, meaning you are a theist - just like a Lutheran.

    But you will find yourself answering no, over and over, until you tire of the exercise. You will never come to a yes. At that point you will realize that you acknowledge no deity, meaning you have no theistic beliefs, meaning you are an a-theist. It is simplicity itself. As much as we'd like that soft, squishy middle position, there isn't one.

    I am often challenged to explain how the universe came into being if there is no God. I do not know and I freely admit it. But it's not incumbent on me to explain any such thing. My lack of knowledge is not proof of the existence of a god! The two ideas are not remotely related.

    To know something is not the same as having faith in something. Knowledge and faith are worlds apart. Believers often try to muddle things by using "faith" disingenuously. For example, they'll say that I have "faith" that a light will go on when I flip a switch. That is not faith. It is knowledge. The laws of nature, and of physics, and my own thousands of experiences in that area, all lead me to know that the light will go on. If it fails to, those same laws and experiences will lead me to know that one of a very few possible mishaps has occurred - i.e. a burned out bulb, a short in the wiring somewhere, a power failure or something similar. And they are all equally knowable and provable.

    However, to say that you know that Jesus rose from the dead, for instance, is a misuse of the word. You know no such thing. You may believe it and have faith in it. But you most certainly do not know it. Likewise, the "I just know it in my heart" argument is hollow. Empty. Meaningless. Everyone knows in their hearts that their god(s) is (are) the true god(s). Muslims know it. Christians know it. Hindus know it. Buddhists know it. The ancient Incas knew it. The ancient Egyptians knew it. They allknew it in their hearts. And they couldn't all be right, could they?

    So, fellow atheists, I encourage you to drop any pretense of knowing there is no God. You have no way of knowing. Nor do I. I have no theistic belief - therefore I am an a-theist. A so-called agnostic has no theistic belief - and is therefore an a-theist.

    When Thomas Huxley coined the word "agnosticism" in 1869 he almost certainly had his tongue in his cheek when he did it. Believing, quite incorrectly, that being an atheist meant asserting that no God does or could exist, he wasn't sure what to call himself, since he wasn't sure about God's existence. (Join the rest of the world, Thomas!) So he made up this meaningless word, agnostic, and it has bedeviled us ever since. Let's be done with it!

  • startingover
    startingover

    This was Judith's column the month after the one above.

    THE HAPPY HERETIC

    Judith Hayes
    July 2001


    Pistols at Dawn? - Agnosticism Revisited

    I expected a large response to last month's column. I did not expect the avalanche that arrived. Nor was I ready for the intensity of the hostility that was spewed at me for even bringing the whole thing up. And, FYI, if you can't make your points civilly don't bother writing. I won't read it, so don't waste your time. However, there was a very good reason for my writing about the agnostic thing. I've said it before, but it bears repeating:

    My target audience has always been fence-sitters and closet atheists. I was in that closet and I sat on that fence myself for many years, lonely and uncertain, and if I had been able to read the type of thing I am now writing, my stay on that fence would have been shortened by years. My mail tells me I am reaching not only a large audience (approx. 4,000 hits monthly now) but a most appreciative one (350 emails monthly now). A full one-third of my mail comes from closet atheists who have no one to talk to and feel almost like aliens from another planet. These people go to Mass, Temple, "fellowship" and so on, and don't believe a word of any of it. But they are afraid of the social ostracism that accompanies outright atheism. So, the Internet provides them with an anonymous way to vent their frustrations as well as feeling vindicated in their lack of beliefs. And I'm delighted if I can be of help to these people.

    I'm especially pleased to be hearing from so many young (under 25) people, and that is why I write things like the atheist/agnostic piece. Young people are struggling to work out their atheism, and such articles help them to think it through. That is my goal and my reward. You old died-in-the-wool "agnostics" can call yourselves anything you like. I know you'll never change. But the young have a chance to come to terms, honestly, with what they are, and discussions such as this can help.

    In my own youth I called myself an agnostic for the same reason everyone else does - social acceptance. There never has been, nor is there now, any other reason for referring to oneself that way, as the smallest amount of honest contemplation will prove.

    But it's so sad, because we'd find each other much more quickly if we were all honest and the subject were not formally TABOO. There are a lot of us atheists out there. However, we are slowly but surely finding each other on the Internet, and taking comfort from it. So keep up the hope. It can only get better.

    Approximately 80 percent of the mail I received about the agnostic article said things like, "Finally! You said so clearly what I've thought for years!" There was a lot of that. But the other 20 percent was positively furious, often rudely so, and some of it was just stupid. People really are afraid of that dirty A-word! Confusing things is the definition problem. The word "God" is as misunderstood as the word "atheist." Interestingly, and tellingly I think, not one person addressed my point that up until 1870 no philosopher felt the need for the word agnostic. How could they possibly have got along without it?!

    Thomas Huxley, who coined the troublesome word, and Charles Darwin, were both keenly aware of the shocked, nay horrified reaction the religious had to Darwin's theory of evolution. In some of Darwin's correspondence he mentioned that he thought the word "atheist" was "too aggressive." (That's baloney, but remember we're talking about Victorian England.) He did not want it attached to his theory. Huxley obliged by creating a meaningless word, but it didn't make much difference. Evolution and atheism are still very much synonymous in the minds of many.

    Following are the objections raised to last month's column. Many of them were nearly identical. But I don't think I've left any of them out:

    • So many of you kept insisting that you could positively claim no God existed - and then went on to discuss all the human-created gods I clearly said were not what I was talking about. I was talking about the possibility of some unknowable entity that may have started the universe. There is no way to deny something that cannot be comprehended! Anything incomprehensible to the human mind by definition cannot be affirmed or denied. For example, someone wrote, "If something is defined as contradictorally [sic] as God is, I don't see any problem in concluding the thing doesn't exist." Another wrote, "…because by our own definitions, we both 'know' that there is/are no, and cannot be, any god(s)." However, our definitions are meaningless in this context except to cast them aside. Human definitions of God are fairly easily refutable; but unknowable means indefinable.

    • An awful lot of you missed my whole point. And that is, that the question is not, repeat not "Is there a God?" And the reason that question cannot be answered by anyone is that no one, not one single human being, has infinite knowledge of the universe. Einstein didn't have it. I don't have it. You don't have it. Ozzie and Harriet didn't have it. Okay? Therefore, while people may believe anything they like, they cannot know anything about anything possibly supernatural because the human mind cannot comprehend that which is unknowable. So, the only question to be asked and answered is, "Do you acknowledge a deity?" And there are only two answers to that - yes or no. There is no way to answer that with, "I don't know." (Unless you're an idiot!)

    • "You have assigned properties to God, and listed them, numbers 1 through 8, and Number 7 proves that God does not exist." No, *I* did not assign any properties to anything, nor do I accept any of them as other than what they are - wishful dreaming. I was simply listing the properties others claim for their humanly-created gods, and how their acceptance of those properties as being reasonable is anything but.

    • God can be defined as Nature itself and can therefore be said to exist. Well, God can be defined as a paper clip if you so choose. But now back to the real world.

    • "Some very famous people called themselves agnostics, so, according to Judith Hayes, those people never existed." (I warned you some of them were stupid.) Millions of people call themselves agnostics. That has nothing to do with whether or not the term has any meaning. (It doesn't.)

    • So many people simply made denials and claims about there being no gods. Deny your hearts out, claim whatever you like, but you cannot know. None of us can. People can claim anything they want. It proves nothing. I can claim that my dead mother comes down from heaven every Thursday and has breakfast with me. We have oatmeal. Then she goes back up. I can't back up this claim with any proof. But I can sure as hell claim it, and hold it to be true. So what? My whole point is that no one can know for certain whether or not there is a god of any kind.

    • Someone demanded that there are two categories: (1) those who believe that there are no gods and (2) those who don't believe in any, even though they don't claim #1. Both #1 and #2 people acknowledge no gods and are therefore nontheists - atheists. The #1 folks can believe anything they like; but they cannot know.

    • "Whether there are gods in that picture is of no general concern, except of course if you are confronted individually." I can only say that this person must be living on another planet. He certainly feels no compassion for the millions of human beings who have been murdered in the name of religion; nor could he have read a newspaper lately or heard of the pope or school vouchers or "charitable choice" or………

    • "Agnostics argue that there is no logical answer to the question, 'Is there a God?' " No, they don't. They say they don't know if there is a God or not. That is a perfectly logical answer. But since they don't know, they obviously do not acknowledge or worship any god and are therefore atheists.

    • "Do you think it's possible to be both agnostic and atheist all at once?" Of course. I think they are one and the same thing.

    • Several people said they don't like calling themselves atheists because they are therefore defining themselves as being against something, in this case theism. Atheism supposedly means "anti" (because of the "a") and so is a negative term. However, that would then mean than asynchronous means being against synchronicity and asymmetrical means being against symmetry. Obviously neither assertion is true. Asymmetrical means to be without symmetry; asynchronous means to be without synchronicity; and atheism means to be without theism. There's nothing about being against theism implied in the word. Society has erroneously chosen to assign many ugly characteristics to the word, but that little "a" means none of them. And many atheists actually think religions have some good points, and miss their own religious pasts; but, since they no longer believe, they are without theistic beliefs - they are atheists.

    The amount of mail I received, and the sometimes desperate attempts to make the case for agnosticism shows how society is winning on this issue. Many of us nonbelievers hate that poor little a-word as much Born Agains. But it all only boils down to this: you either believe in a god or you do not. Choose. There is no middle position.

    And now, I think enough has been said about this! Any more would be beating a dead horse. (What an ugly phrase to get into the language!) And I think next month I'll write about chili recipes.

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