by nicolaou 92 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Confession, I started this thread to develop a post I'd made to under_believer - see here. That was about three weeks ago although many of the same themes were developed by LT, Nark and others between May and July at Are you tired of the whole atheist/believer debate?
I think that's probably what you were recalling. 'Course, none of this proves that you aren't insane. As so many of my theist friends are wont to tell me 'you can't prove a negative'!
Bumped in response to OnTheWayOut's topic.
So is the whole premise of this thread that you are actually an a-agnostic?
My understanding is: if a person leaves room in their perception of the universe for the possibility (not probability) of God then they are agnostic. However, if a person, even knowing the the existence of God cannot be disproved, considers, for all tense and purposes, the universe to be void of God, then they are atheists.
steve
Since nobody can concretely prove the existence of a God either for or against... wouldn't that make everyone Agnostic by default?
Since nobody can concretely prove the existence of a God either for or against... wouldn't that make everyone Agnostic by default?
Then why bother being agnostic? Why hold onto something that isn't there? Fear that it "could" be there?
Paralipomenon: Since nobody can concretely prove the existence of a God either for or against... wouldn't that make everyone Agnostic by default?
No. An agnostic leaves the possibility for the existence of God "in their explanation of the universe", an atheist does not.
For example, you cannot rule out that Jehovah posts on this board under a different pseudonym. It's just that it is extremely unlikely. How you perceive this possibility, whether you include it in you assumptions of poster demographic or not, is similar to my definition of an agnostic and an atheist.
steve
Kid A:
I stand by my original comment that it is intellectual laziness, but obviously this does not imply laziness in every domain, merely on that particular question, so I'm not sure why you are implying this is a blanket insult to those calling themselves agnostics... it is'nt.
Nope, it's not a 'blanket' insult, it's a specific insult.
You bring up the issue of evolution. IMHO, we have evolved to the point where we can apply our brain's cognitive faculties of reasoning to logically weigh the evidence and test the hypothesis. You and I have come up with completely different answers: but at least we have made the attempt and have come up with answers that we individually are satisfied with! LOL....
There ya' go again. Ya' pat yourself and LT on the back for making, "...the attempt and have come up with answers that we individually are satisfied with!" But, people like me who honestly admit we "don't know"...are somehow guilty of "intellectual laziness"? We haven't "made the attempt"?
Bullshit.
What we're all doing, when it comes to the subject of super-natural beliefs, is voicing our personal opinions about what our individual brains -- think ! Being that the existence of gods/God is not provable in any known scientific way to humankind -- at this time...why should any of us have insults thrown at us, because, we do believe, don't believe or simply don't know ?
People love to label other people. Unfortunately, there are usually just '2' labels -- For or Against, republican/democrat, communism/democracy, JW/worldly bird food, heterosexual/homosexual, etc. The real life world is not so black & white, it's really a rainbow of people and opinions.
This argument, IN MY OPINION, is as useless as the one some engage in about sexuality. Some people think they understand, with SO much clarity, not only their personal sexuality, but, everyone else's, too. They are SO sure, in their own mind, that they have the only 'truth' and anyone having contrary personal thoughts and knowledge -- just have to be 'wrong'.
As long as your beliefs or your sexuality don't harm me -- I don't care !
Rabbit - Who self-identifies as agnostic = 'cause, I don't know. I am honestly comfortable with my "inconclusiveness". I don't care about any future after-life reward or punishment. My life is plenty busy with just living this life.
The door of my mind is wide open to change, tho'. Show me.
people like me who honestly admit we "don't know"...
Rabbit: I love that attitude! However, admitting you 'don't know' is not the same as saying that you can never know. In the absence of 'knowing for sure' we can all evaluate the probabilities before us and reach a conclusion which can vary from tentative through to almost certain.
You say that "The real life world is not so black & white". True, but some things are a very, very, very dark shade of grey.
I will say that there is room in my mind for god. I could be convinced of his reality. The thing is that all the evidence before me points in the other direction and so I will declare myself to be a non-believer, I will state; "There is no god".
Now, just because I accept that I can be wrong and that I am open to persuasion that god is real does not make me an agnostic - the term is meaningless. I don't have the belief that god is real, I have the strongly held, evidence backed, data reinforced observation that he is not real.
So, by the popular use of the word, I am an atheist but I don't choose to identify myself by the things I don't believe in, it just seems rather silly.
I still think is smacks of "NewSpeak" (a la George Orwell's 1984) to attempt to remove a perfectly servicable word like "agnostic" from the common vernacular.
