New "doom and gloom" brochure

by TR 46 Replies latest jw friends

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  TR

  Jehu,

  There is no way to pray to God and come up with a different conclusion than the WTS, in their eyes. If a JW needs to pray on any matter, it's answer had better parallel what the WTS teaches, lest ye "run ahead" of the org. Why pray at all? The WTS has all the answers every JW needs in their literature. The Society has already done all the "deep bible study" a JW needs.

  IMHO, for the Society to recommend bible study and prayer, is another way of saying; "you already have all the answers from us, just confirm them with prayer and bible study".

  TR
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  DriveslikeJehu

  Sorry for taking so long to reply, everyone. We got some fine instruction at the circuit assembly today.

  How can you work in harmony with your prayer when you are praying for understanding Scripture? You cannot act in harmony until you understand, right?

  
  What I meant by working in harmony with prayers goes for prayers in general. To understand a Scripture, you can work in harmony with that prayer to do so by doing research, asking the elders, etc. If you pray for a bible study with someone, you'd have to be in the ministry and offer one, right?
  

  Like Red I’m not sure I understand what you are saying here. You pray for the aid of Jehovah’s spirit BEFORE you begin reading.

  
  Not to be sarcastic or anything, but it's okay to pray afterward as well, when the time comes for you to meditate on the info you've covered.
  And questioning-as in coming to them with your problem or query-the elders is fine, especially after you've done reasearch. Just because you've done reaseach on a topic in question doesn't mean you instantly have the answers. The elders are there to clarify things for you if need be. They're there to help!

  The elders, as recently as a week ago, are still being counseled to look closely at sister's legs for violations of rules.

  
  What's the rule? I was an attendant at my assembly this past weekend, and there were quite a few sisters in attendance who thought that perhaps it was okay to dress like Britney Spears or something. If people who aren't witnesses don't dress that immodestly, why should we? We want to remain different, and our dress is one of them. If we can't be told apart from those who are not servants of Jehovah by something as simple as our dress, how does that reflect on the Kingdom?

  Brothers can indeed give talks if they have a beard. If you visit witnet, you'll see Gizmo Toronto, who was quite proud of the fact that he did just that with his goatee.

  C'mon, people, lighten up! This is supposed to be a fun site for brothers and sisters, isn't it?
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  Seven

  Hi DriveslikeJehu.

  If we can't be told apart from those who are not servants of Jehovah by something as simple as our dress, how does that reflect on the kingdom?

  Excellent question. I've often asked myself that very thing. It only led to more questions. How do the movies we attend, the pubs we drink in, the concerts we see, the clubs we dance at, the music CD's we listen to, the magazines and books we purchase and read, the liquor stores we buy from, and the videos we rent reflect on the Kingdom? This is all done in plain view of the world. If we want to remain different, then what's up with all of the above?? I see no difference between us and the world there. Do you?

  Seven

  larc, welcome to the board.
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  larc

  BEARDS AND DRESS (or stages of undress) It seems to me that people should dress sensibly, and that's a very general concept. When you get into tedious particulars it's like straining the gnat and swallowing the camel.

  I think some beards are very distinguished looking, like mine, and some are really scruffy looking. I keep mine neatly trimmed, because my wife insists on it, not because of any outside influence.

  Same with clothes. If you look "nice" by local community standards that should suffice. Skirt hem lengths go up and down...big deal. The WTBTS should lighten up. By the way, the elders have a nice job - checking out the legs, but then again someone has to do it.
  
  Joke: We all should be allowed to wear short sleeved shirts at work, because the U.S. Constitution gives us the right to "bear arms".
  Now on the matter of sex, I think this is no body's business except the two people "doing it". I question the motives of those who inquire. Are they voyuerists or spiritual guides?? If they want a "blow by blow" description, I wouldn't trust there motives. WAITING AND SEVEN, Thank you for welcoming a newcomer.

  LARC
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  Pathofthorns

  interesting comments here [url] http://www.cyberpass.net/~h2o/wwwboard/messages/302135.html[/url]

  nice to know the cliches are not only still the same, but you get to hear them one after another. Just when i thought these lines were dead, they are resurrected only to be used again and again by brothers in the audience in future talks because they sounded cool.

  path (belated welcome to larc. hope you stick around, i'm sure you'll be an interesting addition to the gang here :)
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  DriveslikeJehu

  Excellent question. I've often asked myself that very thing. It only led to more questions. How do the movies we attend, the pubs we drink in, the concerts we see, the clubs we dance at, the music CD's we listen to, the magazines and books we purchase and read, the liquor stores we buy from, and the videos we rent reflect on the Kingdom? This is all done in plain view of the world. If we want to remain different, then what's up with all of the above?? I see no difference between us and the world there. Do you?

  Yes, I do. That's where the need to be selective comes in. I don't know about your area, but most witnesses I know don't even go to pubs/bars or clubs. Some are comfortable with it, some aren't, so I'm not judging you, k? Different strokes for different folks. Bygones
  But suppose a brother goes to the video store to rent a pornographic movie. He figures none of the friends from the hall saw him there, so he's in the clear. Later that week in the ministry, he knocks on the door of the clerk at the video store. How can that brother have freeness of speech talking about the moral standards of Jehovah's Witnesses? Or if someone else witnesses to the clerk, and he begins to study and attend meetings, what happens when the clerk sees the brother at the KH? It would certainly detract from the Kingdom, and we don't want to be guilty of that.
  Our selections in the matters you mentioned have to show that we are different. There's nothing wrong with buying CDs. I must have bought 5 different albums last month!hehe But I checked the content of them first, to make sure that there was nothing that would be unbefitting of a true christian.
  And that's the biggest area where we can show that we are different, and no part of this system. The selections we make can 'make or break' the reputation of the Kingdom, as far as witnessing to others goes.
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  Frenchy

  Jehu:
  Thank you for your reply. In answer to my question:

  “But suppose that you pray for Jehovah's Spirit and after doing so you come away with a different understanding than the Society's? What do you do then?”

  You replied:

  Well really, you should have already had the aid of Jehovah's Spirit. And when you pray, you have to remember to put forth some effort to work in hamony with your prayers. And if it has changed your view on the F&DS, is that new outlook still in harmony with the Scriptures?

  
  Red and I asked for clarification and I thank you in behalf of the both of us for your reply:
  

  What I meant by working in harmony with prayers goes for prayers in general. To understand a Scripture, you can work in harmony with that prayer to do so by doing research, asking the elders, etc.

  
  I want to make sure that I understand what you are saying. Let’s use an example. Let’s say that I am reading Revelation and I run across the references to the 144,000 (Rev 7:4; 14:1; etc.). Suppose that by giving this careful and prayerful consideration I come up with the conclusion that this number is symbolic and that try as I might I cannot find justification for assuming that it’s literal. I read the publications on this subject and after doing so I find that I understand exactly what is being presented but I cannot accept that reasoning in light of the Biblical passages. Now my questions are: Do I now pray for God’s spirit to help me to understand these passages or do I pray for God’s spirit to help me accept what the publications say? So are the prayers that James was suggesting, under inspiration, to be a request for my understanding of God’s Word or for accepting someone else’s understanding?
  I don’t see any encouragement by anyone in the organization to take James’ words seriously. I see rather an attempt to twist them in order to misapply them toward another end. I will attempt to explain why I make that statement. I will post your comment that, I believe, illustrates my point:
  

  And questioning-as in coming to them with your problem or query-the elders is fine, especially after you've done reasearch. Just because you've done reaseach on a topic in question doesn't mean you instantly have the answers. The elders are there to clarify things for you if need be.

  
  The response that you gave in connection with what one should do if he does not understand a Biblical passage is in line with what the Society teaches. Exactly. I commend you on having a good grasp of what is being promoted. But would you please look very carefully at those words which I took the liberty of embolding? This is where the Society is sending people with their questions. Research means the publications. Elders means the publications because that is where they will go for the answer. It all boils down to: Read what WE have concluded on the matter. Now a closer look at James’ words: ” : “If any one of you is lacking in wisdom, let him keep on asking God, for he give generously to all and without reproaching; and it will be given him. But let him keep on asking in faith, not doubting at all.” (James 1:5,6) Please note where James is sending honest-hearted seekers of wisdom. Not once does he refer anyone to publications or even to the elders. Let’s note also another very prominent Christian of that time and one of the authors of the Bible, the apostle Paul. ” Now the latter (Beroeans) were more noble-minded than those in Thes·sa·lo·ni'ca, for they received the word with the greatest eagerness of mind, carefully examining the Scriptures daily as to whether these things were so.” Acts 17:11 –NWT. Have you noted that the final authority upon which the noble Beroeans relied? At that particular time it is extremely probable that Paul as well as many other faithful men had penned several letters to various congregations and individuals that were in that area. Publications. Some of these would later be incorporated into the Bible itself and yet Paul made no reference to these published documents as an explanation of Scripture. He pointed to Scripture itself and allowed the people to read and draw their own conclusions.
  It is a fine thing to discuss the Bible with someone else if for no other reason that what Jesus said that is recorded in Matt 18:20. However, with the passing of Jesus and the apostles which were anointed with Holy Spirit to the degree of being able to impart a portion of the Spirit to others there now remains no one here on earth with that marvelous ability to be able to legitimately make the claim of knowing the mind of Christ and the express will of God. Jesus spoke of sending a helper, namely the Holy Spirit, not a body of men.
  The only understanding of God’s Word that we will ever have will be what he permits us to have, according to his good pleasure, by means of the Holy Spirit. Everything else that we come to ‘know’ or more accurately, accept by any other means is the word of man which has no Holy Spirit and is therefore subject to error. Countless errors committed by those claiming to have this privileged information or understanding should have taught us something about that. Somehow some of us choose to turn a blind eye to that fact. I know because I did it for a very long time.
  I thank you for your responses, Jehu, and I respect your beliefs with which I am very well acquainted. I hope that we can disagree on some points and still remain friends as well. You have conducted yourself very well here and I appreciate this.

  -Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it-
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  Frenchy

  Jehu:
  I just wanted to make one more comment on something that you said which I think is very relevant to our discussion on this thread:
  “And questioning-as in coming to them with your problem or query-the elders is fine, especially after you've done reasearch. “
  You worded this very well in connection with the Society’s view on the matter. This is the extent to which questioning is limited. It’s okay to question IF you are going to an elder with it so that HE can straighten you out on it via the publications. Of course, questioning the interpretations and explanations provided by the literature is not permitted, even in the face of the fact that they have, by their own reluctant admission, (on rare occasions) been wrong over and over again with those interpretations and explanations. Explanations, I may add, that have put people’s lives in jeopardy like the business with the transplants as an example. During the time transplants were not allowed one was at risk of dying rather than accepting a kidney, heart, liver, etc. because the Society said it was wrong to do so. Later that edict was rescinded without admitting being wrong in this case. However the very fact that they reversed themselves on their stand shows that they came to recognize that they were in error. It is no sin to err but to refuse to admit error is a sin. 1 John 1:10 states: “If we make the statement: ‘We have not sinned,’ we are making him a liar, and his word is not in us.” To refuse to own up to a grievous error (sin), one capable of causing great harm, is wrong. It’s even more wrong to go on making such potentially harmful (and even fatal) rules once one realizes that he is not infallible.
  So in defense of personal interpretation, if by reading Scripture I become convinced that it is wrong to accept an organ or tissue transplant then I put my own life in jeopardy and no one else’s. If I die as a result of that error then it could rightly be said that I have sinned in this matter. On the other hand, if I convince others that I have special insight into God’s word and that he has authorized me to make decisions in these matters then I put those disciples of mine in jeopardy. If as a result of THAT error ONE person dies, which is the greater sin? Worst still what if by repeatedly make such rash and irresponsible rules that a person would become disillusioned by that prideful arrogance and actually abandon his faith in God and his Word? See-(Matt 18:6)

  -Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it-
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  DriveslikeJehu

  Well like yesterday's text from Examining the Scriptures Daily brought out, we can not only look to the publications, but just a dictionary as well. There are reference Bibles, the Insight on the Scriptures, etc. This was in the previous Watchtower we studied, with three great lessons talking about Bible reading, personal study, and application of what we learn.
  And the elders don't have to use the publications everytime. Sometimes they might have greater understanding of the Scriptures than we do. Notice I said 'sometimes,' and 'might.' I don't want everyone jumping on me for saying the elders are ommniscient. My dad is one, so I know they aren't.

  Oh yeah, I forgot to answer waiting: I'm only 20, so that issue didn't have much effect on me. Still doesn't, since I'm not even dating yet. I've got congregational responsibilities, college, and work to worry about, so I'll take the bridge whenever I come to it.
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  alan

  im not so sure about this site and dont think i will be back