--- A Question for ALL Atheistic ex-Dubs----

by gordon d 145 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  kid-A

  "Look around you, All of creation screams it…. Your very eyes and ears take it in. Are you going to let these liars continue to fool you? Or is the reason for not believing in God that he cannot exist because his actions are not reasonable or loving to your personal standard of amazing wisdom and advanced intellect?"

  Um, no. Looking around me proves the NON-EXISTENCE of your fantasy-god, Gordon. What you have presented here, in PERFECT JW fashion, I might add, is a contrived and pitiful attempt to elicit some irrational, emotional reaction. You have no proof of any god, none whatsoever. You have as much proof for god's existence as I have proof for purple Unicorns, Leprechauns, Santa Clause or the Tooth Fairy. Like your god, they are merely literary creations.

  You are more than welcome to exist in a self-constructed bubble of illusion. Its your right in a free society. Its also MY right to reject your beliefs, lock stock and barrel.

  And for the record, my experience being born into the Watchtower cult had very little to do with my evolution towards atheism. Once I began to THINK and develope critical reasoning skills, I quickly realized the absurdity of such a belief structure, and found peace of mind, intellectual and psychological freedom.

  Gods are social constructions, Gordon. If you doubt this, perhaps we should pay a visit to the historical cemetery of the gods and walk past the headstones of:

  Zeus, Thor, Ra, Neptune, Be-elzebub, Baal, Artemis, Samhain, etc etc etc......all once loved and worshipped, now long since dead.
• 

  fullofdoubtnow

  The WTS has told all of us lies and sent us looking for God in the wrong places…. Most of us agree that the WTS was not the ‘Truth”… Why then do we still look for the God that they told us about? Why are we so willing to give up when the God of their creation turns out Not to be there?

  I agree that the wts told us lies, but I'm not looking for god in their way or any other way just now, and probably won't do in the future.

  but please, don’t pull anyone else down into your hopelessness with you!

  Hopelessness? If you regard atheists in that way, that's your prerogative. I don't personally try to persuade anyone else to join me in my atheism, that's their personal choice. Believe it or not, I love my "hopeless" life now, having no ficticious higher power to try to satisfy. I need god about as much as I need rabies.

  Linda (a happy atheist)
• 

  Scully

  It's called "freedom".

  Freedom from what? Pain, Death, Worry, Loneliness... or just control?

  Freedom from: religion (in all its glorious divisiveness), prejudice, delusion, mythology, superstition, unnecessary guilt, "divine judgement", wasting time "serving" an insatiably "jealous" diety, feeling that I am "not good enough and never will be"... for starters.

  Freedom to: think critically, reach my human potential, do good just for the sake of doing something good, be kind and loving just for the sake of being kind and loving, deal with life in the here and now, have intellectual honesty and integrity, plan for my future without worrying that "god" will smite me, raise my children without prejudice and to be honest, good, kind and loving, and to reach their own potential .... for starters.

  It's interesting how you assume that atheism is about rebellion from "control". It really isn't. It is about personal accountability and responsibility... self-direction and self-control ... and accepting the consequences of your behaviour and choices.

  I don't know about you, but to me it seems incredibly selfish to do good in an effort to "please god" with the intent of receiving a future reward for doing good. Do you really believe that an all-knowing entity isn't going to see that little ruse for what it really is: an attempt to barter and bargain with him/her/it? Personally, I feel much better about doing good simply because it is within my ability to do so, without any expectation of anything in return. There are no strings attached to my gifts of kindness, no expectations of a "reward".

  Riiiiight.... there are even kids wanting to shove their eggs down the throats of kids who don't want any ... or perhaps are allergic to them!

  Then does that mean that ALL kids are bad?

  How are you arriving at that conclusion from the statement I made?

  To answer your question, though, atheism / humanism supports the belief that all people (absent of any pathological state) are basically good, and that they are doing the best that they can in their situation based on their knowledge and understanding at that particular point in time. Maya Angelou said something along those lines: "You did what you knew how to do, and when you knew better, you did better."

  On the other hand, religion (take your pick) implies that people are inherently bad, and are in need of salvation and redemption.

  The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. ~ Genesis 6:5

  the LORD said in his heart, "I will never again curse the ground because of man, for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth..." ~ Genesis 8:21b

  Then you have entire law of Moses which is devoted to describing how to punish people for being "bad", yet it never once addresses what to do about people who are good. You can be a good person your entire life and make just one mistake (like Moses did), and BLAMMO, you don't get to enjoy any reward for being "mostly" good, even though "god" knows we are human and imperfect. Is that fair? Is that justice? Is that loving? Is that any way to treat your "children"?

  If you're gonna site Job for a point... you gotta to take it all as valid..... what are you some kinda' JW????

  Actually, no, I don't "gotta to take it all as valid". Honestly, I don't take any of it as valid. But, since it is a reference manual that carries some weight in your estimation, I'm free to make use of it (or not) to communicate with someone who values it. Kind of like using a French-English dictionary to help communicate with a francophone. If you were a Muslim, I'd make use of the Qu'ran instead.

  Another website that you might find informative: http://www.abarnett.demon.co.uk/atheism/positive.html
• 

  *jeremiah*

  Wow Gordy, u really got yourself into the the thick of things here. I think your statement or curiousities are valid, I just think they could have been stated in a more thoughtful way. I'm going to have to give u a "w".

  I think everyone has faith.

  Some put faith in the concept that god doesn't exist.

  Some put faith in science.

  Some put faith in God.

  Some put faith in the God of JWs, or in the God of Mormonism, or in the God of Catholicism, or in the God of Protestantism.

  So naturally, after coming out of a cult where all we talked about was "godly things" or "spiritual matters" and the bible, ...on here, we are bound to debate such matters. Yet, for me, i don't think one can prove belief for someone else. That's why it's faith. A christian can't necessarily prove 100% that god exists, and, likewise, an atheist can't prove %100 that god doesn't exist.

  I think atheists have questions that naturally arise in their minds about believers of God and the bible. Like, "How is this possible...., or How could God be this way, and then be this way....? or whatever.

  And, ...likewise, believers in God naturally have curiousities about the minds of atheistic believers,...i know i do.

  So keep the questions/comments coming on both sides,....just, can't we be a little more thoughtful towards each other?
• 

  acadian

  And is it a "he", a "she", or an "it"?

  Maybe both? Look at nature, almost all creation has it's opposites, male and female. Gen 1:26 26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, Could it be God is both male and female? Of course you have to believe their 's a God first... Just a thought... Acadian
  One in Christ, but not a christian
• 

  gordon d

  So what you are saying that the searching person's happiness requires them to find "god", and atheists offering their perspective as a viable alternative are "bullies" and are employing "coercion", while believers offering their perspective as a viable alternative are not "bullies" and not employing "coercion"? NO they are both bullies C'mon, gordon, whatever happened to the concept of making fully informed decisions based on exploring many different alternatives? That is EXACTLY what I AM saying! Why do you refer to discussions that promote atheism or humanism as a viable belief system as something that would "squelch the dreams of anyone else who has not found 'their' happiness"? Because Atheism places absolute limits on a person's spirituality and growth. Atheism can only explain the existence of all matter through theories of creation that contradict themselves but yet cannot accept other's viewpoint as being possible..... Why is becoming a believer in "god" necessary for happiness? It is not necessary for happiness.... But a belief in "something unseen" is a prerequisite for hope in something beyond this life. What if atheism / humanism is the thing that would bring them peace and happiness? It certainly can (and does) do that for many people, That is Great! It obviously is more effective at that than the religions that we are familiar with! Doesn't the shoe, then, go on the foot of the believers who keep trying to promote belief as the only way to happiness as a 'dream squelcher'? Absolutely!... it's people pointing the finger at one another while they are guilty of the same thing! This is really the same question as earlier... anyone saying that what they believe is the "ONLY way for Everybody" is doing a dis-service to others... some people want more than is offered by religion, atheism, or sprirtism.... THAT is what I'm speaking of! My stance is that for some people MORE happiness and more HOPE can be found if you keep looking... is that offensive?

  The one question that is posed the most frequently by atheist is "If there is a God, how can he/she allow all of the terrible thing that happen?" But the question is often posed with an arrogance that no one can really offer a suitable answer....In fact, it's rarely a question that poeple are sincerely "asking" It is often no more than a philosophical statement that what we know about a Godlike figure is flawed by, the limits of our reasonibilty.... such a statement is antithesis of very open-mindedness that these people (so often) pride themselves in.

  I never said "happiness"... I said "Hopelessness" I'm sticking to that statement until someone will offer their "Hope" (for existence beyond this life)

  Am I implying that atheist have no happiness... not at all! The freedom of not molding one's life into the conformity of religion is very liberating.

  Are atheists wiser than religious peolple that have been fooled into believing lies and wasting their lives or hurting others because of these lies?.... Absolutely!

  Does any person have all the answers and the ability to say "Anything" about spiritual amtters as being a Fact?... I seriously doubt that!

  Hey Scully, If there are any questions that I have not responded too... please let me know. I sincerely thought that I had.
• 

  moshe

  I'm a non-religious person. I believe in God, but in my opinion, he has not revealed his message to all men. Some individuals claimed to have talked to God . It hasn't happened for me. I have doubts and until God answers them, I feel it is perfectly proper to not believe what I can't personally verify. Others have doubts, too but operate on a faith driven basis. To each his own. Blind faith is what kept me in the JW org for so long and I will not fall into that trap again.

  peace,

  Moshe
• 

  fullofdoubtnow

  I said "Hopelessness" I'm sticking to that statement until someone will offer their "Hope" (for existence beyond this life)

  What makes you think that everyone is really interested in an existence beyond this life? I am personally satisfied with my life as it is now. I don't particularly want it to end, but I accept that it will one day. I neither hope for, nor believe, that there is anything beyond that.That is, of course, only my opinion, which may or may not be wrong.

  My hopes are for things I know can be attained in my lifetime, my "pitiful 70 or so years of existence", as you put it. I'm comfortable with that, I do not judge anyone who chooses to believe otherwise, and I do not attempt to try and persuade anyone else to agree with my point of view.

  If you choose to search for god, and that works for you, then I wish you well. I hope you find what you are looking for. I don't choose to do that, and that works for me.
• 

  gordon d

  Hi Undercover,

  You obviously read the analogy but you may have read more into it than I intended... sorry for the not adequately expressing myself....

  There was no attempt to use a metaphor for God. The object of the search was an arbitrary item. The setting was supposed to be familiar to a broad audience It was simply an attempt to express the different personality traits in people faced with the challenge of believing in something that they had not yet touched, held, or seen.

  The brother saying that "He Knew for a fact" where eggs could be found is a metaphor for religion.

  The happy kids with full baskets are those that have discovered what they were looking for... again eggs are arbitrary, the baskets can contain anything that make the finder happy.

  If someone finds their happiness... That's great! As long as their happiness doesn't hurt other people.... I am NOT talking about religion as MY happiness or hope... I too, have been down that road and there were no eggs! What I am saying is that instead of giving up, I continued to look in many other places. When I finally found an egg that gave me happiness and hope I was exstatic! Seeing other people on the same search is wonderful but hearing people (that have given up the search for anything more than this life) calling others foolish is just destructive and simple-minded. NOTE::::: I did NOTsay that atheist were simple minded.... I said that those who express their beliefs as "The only way" are simple minded. ....and those that use their position to "enforce" such a stance are criminal!
• 

  Scully

  Why do you refer to discussions that promote atheism or humanism as a viable belief system as something that would "squelch the dreams of anyone else who has not found 'their' happiness"?

  Because Atheism places absolute limits on a person's spirituality and growth.

  This is another example, from my point of view, where you are demonstrating a very uninformed perception of what atheism is. Spirituality and atheism are not necessarily mutually exclusive. For me, spirituality involves nurturing my "spirit" - the essence of who I am - renewing my physical, mental and emotional energy, having something to be passionate about and excited about. People who are not constrained by superstitious beliefs are free to explore beyond the boundaries of those beliefs, rather than just rhyming off scriptures about "with god all things are possible", etc. I want to know how and why things happen - it's far too simplistic for me to just accept that "god breathed life into Adam and he became a living soul".

  Atheism can only explain the existence of all matter through theories of creation that contradict themselves but yet cannot accept other's viewpoint as being possible.....

  Atheists like evidence to support theories. Isn't that just despicable?? Detectives like evidence too - how would you like to be condemned to death row based on a theory that is not supported by evidence? Because that's pretty much what theism does to people - and they spend their energy and their lives trying to plea bargain for more time or something else. Atheists accept the evidence that everything has a life cycle - from a yeast cell, to a puppy or kitten or goldfish, to a tree or a tortoise or a dolphin, to stars in the universe - all of them have a life span, so why should it be different for humans? Accepting that, and realizing that I have one kick at the can, motivates me to get the most out of this life and do the best with it that I possibly can. What on earth is wrong with that?

  I never said "happiness"... I said "Hopelessness" I'm sticking to that statement until someone will offer their "Hope" (for existence beyond this life)

  Yes, you did say "happiness":

  My comment was intended to impress humility on those who felt it necessary to squelch the dreams of anyone else who has not found "their" happiness I think that those people are bullies.... wether they use their position to tell lies and be controling (Most, perhaps ALL Religions) or if they say that others are fools for tryng to find something that they could not. It's still coercion and it welcomes debate on this forum

  and you referred to "joy" (aka "happiness"):

  Hey Scully,
  
  Have you found the "Joy that surpasses all understanding" yet? If so, please share your "hope" with us.

  And as far as "hope" goes, what if atheists are correct and there is no such thing as "god", and no such thing as an afterlife? Aren't the theists guilty of trying to sell a false hope (aka "lies") to people, just like the JWs do?