--- A Question for ALL Atheistic ex-Dubs----

by gordon d 145 Replies latest jw friends

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  gordon d

  Hi Terry,

  There are several key differences between reformatist spirituality and the perspectives submitted by Pascal. Not the least of which is in the separation of intangible higher powers from religious entities (tangible) dieties. I do not claim to promote manmade doctrine as a successful approach to any area other than the satisfaction of it's authors... As critics of Pascal effectively pointed out, these perspectives of higher powers have a history of facilitating fascism, ethnocentricism, and violence.

  I hope that some of you can see that "that" is not what I'm promoting as a goal for persons trying to develop a relationship with their creator....... It was the nature of the God that men told me about, in my youth... But it is NOT the God that I have found and love.

  If you feel it helpful to compare my (abbreviated) viewpoints with those of another person.... please consider those of C.S. Lewis, M.Scott Peck, or if the setting of 16th century philosopy is your bag.... try Ralph Cudworth.
• 

  funkyderek

  gordon d:

  The same story from a different perspective.

  Some of the children have searched as much of the garden as they could without hurting themselves and have found nothing. They give up and decide to play a different game. Another group has also found nothing but they know there must be something there, because otherwise, what would be the point of being in the garden? So they find a tree in the garden that's too big and prickly to climb. "That must be where the eggs are", one of them declares excitedly. They cheer at the thought that they have found what they are looking for. "But how do we get the eggs?", asks one of the children. There are lots of suggestions. Some of the children think they should just stand near the tree and wait until the eggs fall down of their own accord. Others think they should shake the tree. Others decide they should wait until a big boy comes along who can climb the tree. A couple of the children even try to climb the tree themselves, but just end up hurting themselves. Some of the children even find a different tree, and argue that the eggs are really there, and those who think they're up the first tree are stupid. A few fights break out, and a lot of the children are tired, hungry and unhappy. Some of them are still excited though, and can't stop talking about the eggs they're going to get. They even try to convince the other children (those who have abandoned the hunt) to return and wait with them. They are uncomfortable watching their carefree attitude and can't understand how someone can be happy without the prospect of Easter eggs.

  Eventually, the sun starts to set and one by one, the children leave. Some of them have been playing happily all day, and are exhausted but satisfied. Some of them have been standing round a tree fighting, and are tired, angry, scratched, bruised and disappointed.

  None of them has any Easter eggs, because there were none to be found.
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  daystar

  This is the problem with such illustrations... They too often set up straw men.

  If you haven’t found God, maybe it’s because you haven’t looked in the right places, looked hard enough, or looked long enough. Please don’t give up! When you do finally discover the real Him, It’ll be worth everything that you ever did to find him.

  Perhaps you gave up on scepticism too soon... perhaps you gave up digging deeper and deeper to the core of the matter, in order to feel safe and loved by an entity which may end up being little more than wishful thinking, just to protect you from a harsher reality that's not "happy-making"?

  Just for argument's sake, really try to imagine that there really, really is no God. How does that make you feel? Does existence seem meaningless? Do you lose hope? And so then are you choosing, consciously or unconsciously, to believe in a God that you can believe in because the alternative scares you?

  but please, don’t pull anyone else down into your hopelessness with you!

  I'd rather confront the reality of an uncomfortable, ultimately hopeless existence than to live life believing a fantasy. Your assumption, however, is that without God, life must be hopeless. And this simply is not the case... at all.
• 

  gordon d

  Hi Scully....(((( I think I'm in Love! ))))

  Please know that after multiple surgeries on my right hand.... my typing is limited to the use 6 fingers, so the reponses to you questions are slow in coming.

  This is another example, from my point of view, where you are demonstrating a very uninformed perception of what atheism is. Spirituality and atheism are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

  You're right... I was lumping those two together.... Is there a spiritualism (that you accept) that offers anything for existence beyond this life, other than legacy?

  Atheists like evidence to support theories

  OK... what would you call sufficient evidence for the existence of George Washington? I'm not being facetious... what constitutes as proof?

  If there was a giant explosion (the Big Bang theory) 10-20 billion years ago and even if the matter that exploded was traveling at the speed of light, wouldn't we be able to see the expanding matter in astonomical features. If we can see a galaxy that is presumed to be 20 billion light years away, the image of that formed galaxy began it's travel to earth 10 billion years ago.

  Sorry... In what context did I say happiness? The referrence to the joy that surpasses understanding would be (by it's very title) a happiness that cannot be quantified... therefore, if it's a happiness that CAN be explained, we are talking about two seperate things.

  And as far as "hope" goes, what if atheists are correct and there is no such thing as "god", and no such thing as an afterlife? Aren't the theists guilty of trying to sell a false hope (aka "lies") to people, just like the JWs do?

  In answer to your question... Yes! BUT... If the atheist are wrong............?

  Can I prove my viewpoint as an absolute certainty?... NO! Can I say that there is merit in a person's personal search for knowledge... I think so!

  Hey Funkyderek.... Wonderful take on the story! Seriously, Very well done.....

  one small problem....

  I looked in all the obvious spots... I took the advice of others (who had never found one)... Looked in places that no one would ever think of looking.... I even gave up for a while.... but towards the end of the day.. I found an egg! It was right there all along, it just wasn't the shape,color, or size that I had expected, so I had looked right over it!
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  hillary_step

  Gordon,

  I think you are missing the point that Scully is trying to make.

  You're right... I was lumping those two together.... Is there a spiritualism (that you accept) that offers anything for existence beyond this life, other than legacy?

  Atheists like evidence to support theories

  OK... what would you call sufficient evidence for the existence of George Washington? I'm not being facetious... what constitutes as proof?

  Proof exists of the existence of George Washington in documentation, including numerous signed documents, eyewitness accounts, even a body should you wish to dig it up!

  What proof can you give that *anyone* has survived 'beyond this life ' as you put it?

  HS

  HS
• 

  LittleToe

  I enjoyed my egg, but alas I can't prove it because I've eaten it.

  Howdya like them eggs?
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  ringo5

  I enjoyed my egg, but alas I can't prove it because I've eaten it.

  Howdya like them eggs?

  There are ways to measure the sulphur content of the hot air you exude!

  Ringo5
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  daniel-p

  While starting a hunt for Easter eggs… one child runs to a big tree and finds nothing… then that child’s brother says, “Go look under that rock… I promise you’ll find one there!” Again, Nothing! The child throws down their basket and says, “I give up! I can’t find one…. I don’t even think there are any Easter Eggs!! You guys are wasting your time!!”
  
  Another child has the same experience but just when he was about to give up, noticed that some of the other kids were smiling with baskets full of eggs! He starts searching again and actually finds some!

  There are three big issues you are misunderstanding, at least that I can see: The first is that you immediately equate value (easter eggs) with "answers" about life. Some people don't have a need to search for those answers. I doubt even you, full of faith, can admit in your heart that you have found those "answers" 100% satisfying. In any case, life's Big Questions have been asked by every human ever lived (that's billions) and you have taken it upon yourself to declare you have found the answers to those Big Questions in the form of an all-powerful being. Please forgive us all non-believers if we are skeptical.

  Second, you assume anyone who isn't searching the answers to the Big Questions actively is "giving up," like a child throwing his basket down and throwing a fit. For a person with a graduate degree in psychology or sociology, this reveals a shocking lack of wanting to engage in an even-handed discussion. Your bias is oozing from your pores, in other words.

  Third, (and this sort of plays into your illustration) Easter Egg hunts are a silly game - similar in many ways to spending your life attempting to interpret scripture, mixing symbology and literalism in order to explain away the inconsistencies. Have fun at it... it's just that some of us are pretty damn tired of the "game" and wish to get on with our life and live it.

  Again, as I stated before, only now that I am completely aware of my mortality has it been possible for me to trully love life.

  EDIT: copied and pasted from another thread that gordon stated his viewpoint in.
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  Nosferatu

  Perhaps the kid who doesn't find any easter eggs ends up finding a frog instead. Hey, frogs are cool! He found himself a new pet. How is this child different from the kids who found easter eggs? All of them are happy, regardless of finding easter eggs, or a frog.

  The one question that is posed the most frequently by atheist is "If there is a God, how can he/she allow all of the terrible thing that happen?"

  That's not true. All the atheist I know say "shit happens"

  I don't bother questioning why god lets things happen because I believe he doesn't exist. It's like if I said "My cousin Jibby dropped a ham on the floor". Why would I say such a thing if I didn't have a cousin Jibby?
• 

  gordon d

  Hi Hillary,

  Proof exists of the existence of George Washington in documentation, including numerous signed documents, eyewitness accounts, even a body should you wish to dig it up!

  Doesn't the same thing exist for Christ? The difference being that one is 200 years old and one is 2000..... As far as the body... sorry, I beleive that one is missing,,, kinda' my whole point!

  This has turned into a debate on the existence of a higher power... that's fine and perhaps a very worthwhile topic. But I doubt that any progress will be made here.. very little has been made over 100's of years in other forums, by people smarter than any of us. The initial point of this thread was about squelching open-mindedness.... we all have our reasons for thinking the way that we do. Regardless of your position, you are entitled to say, "some get it... some don't" But no one has the right to enforce their beleifs through any sort of coercion, manipultion, or pressure.

  Scully has obviously found the "egg" that she was looking for...so has Daystar, and Mouthy, and... etc.. etc... but please accept thatI HAVE TOO! I found an egg similar to Scully's once but I wasn't satisfied, so I kept on looking until I found one with more stuff in it than I could have imagined.... You don't have to believe me and with all the horror stories of egg hunts in mine-fields, who could blame you? But please don't lump me in with the liars that have misled others.... I have nothing to gain from this soap-box. I just don't think that it's acceptable to try and pull others out of the hunt because of what you have or haven't found!

  That is exactly what JW's do!