by gordon d 145 Replies latest jw friends
Hi Daniel P,
You're right... it was obviously a poorly written analogy. It seems to have clouded my point on this issue more than explaining it....
as I stated before, only now that I am completely aware of my mortality has it been possible for me to trully love life.
That is very profound... what are you doing with this new awareness?
I just don't think that it's acceptable to try and pull others out of the hunt because of what you have or haven't found!
As you yourself have inimated before, Athiesm is a hunt in itself. It seems to be either (a) an absense of answers, and so satisfying those of us who do not want to pursue the game of easter egg hunting, or (b) an answer unto itself, with requisite faith. Regardless of what the official definition of Athiesm is, many atheists fall into those two categories. And so, by your own comments above, could not Athiesm be just one more attempt at answering the Big Questions? Why is it the "hopeless" antithesis of love and life? Why do you see Athiesm as a means by which others can come to an understanding of life that somehow devalues it? I consider myself an athiest now, but I do by no means dread living. I love life, much more than I did when I was a believer. Now that I know (believe) there is no afterlife, this life is much more meaningful.
Hi Daniel,
I love life, much more than I did when I was a believer. Now that I know (believe) there is no afterlife, this life is much more meaningful.
OK...this line did it... NOW, I see your point. I don't have any way to debate the peace that you have attained through your beliefs. To a certain degree, I have wished that your approach would have been sufficient for me. However, the new, innate feeling that has come from the new relationship has added to the appreciation of this life as well. The only difference is that there is now a purpose and meaning to this life that I couldn't find before... That awareness has answered all of the BIG questions that were nothing more than enigmas in the past.
Is my way superior to yours.... who can say? For you... probably not. For me... I think so.
SEE? I told you it wasn't about religion!
That is very profound... what are you doing with this new awareness?
Well, let me see (puts on oracle hat), the only thing that matters is life, not death. THerefore the only obligation I have to myself is to enjoy it and value it and help other to do so because the betterment of the whole is greater than the betterment of each and everyone individually. Death does not matter. God does not matter. I see "god" as a means of approaching death, preparing your heart so to speak, in order to meet death as prepared as you can be. I see it exactly the same as the Egyptians or Mayans burying food and gold in the tombs and graves of the dead in order for their "journey" to be successfull. God and Death are the same, in other words. I don't know when humans aquired the ability to be aware of their own mortality, but they had to have crossed that threshold of evolution somewhere along the line. And when they did, it ensured that we would behave in such a way to make our own destruction inevitable, since out entire societal structure would center on survival now and survival after death - a completely non-sustainable pattern of civilization once you look at it on a global scale. There must be death for there to be life; so in that way death and life are the same - just two sides of the same hand - they are not really the same, but they are inseperable.
Each generation wants to live forever, and therefore believes the most important time in all history was their time, not any time before or any time in the future, but the time that their feet are walking the earth. That hubris is what ensures the constant destruction and renewal of the human species, and hopefully, towards an ecological steady-state.
Doesn't the same thing exist for Christ? (IF you have a signature I suggest Ebay$$$) The difference being that one is 200 years old and one is 2000..... As far as the body... sorry, Ibeleive that one is missing,,, kinda' my whole point!
I thought we were discussing the existance of god. The existance of a guy named Jesus is a whole nother thread
LETS DO THAT ONE NEXT!!!!!!
What bugs me, is the guy suggests that people who believe in god are wiser simply because of the fact that they believe in god.
The idea that people or god make judgements of the worth of people, indeed whether they are worthy to exist or not on the basis of one aspect of their personal belief is less than one dimensional, imo. If god had personally done some undeniable, major life sustaining act in each individuals' life, it would have some merit. However, being that this god is hidden, and the claimed truth of his acclaimed word is also claimed to be hidden, it seems capricious. As well, the claimed effects of the claimed vicarious death of the claimed messiah are hidden. There is no proof of any physical change in mankind because of jesus' death.
S
Hey Asheron.... OK... hold your horses... we'll get to that!
Hey Daniel,
That was a lucid, annylitical, and intellectual perspective.... You are in illustious company with your thoughts, with some of the "great thinkers" of human history.
.... but it's STILL, depressing as hell!
again... What are you doing with this new awareness?
Seriously, I'm curious, how does this perspective impact your lifestyle (not your view of life) but how you go about your days?
++++ this is not for the purpose of a "look at what I do... look at what you do" comparison++++
gordon:
(((( I think I'm in Love! ))))
We can't have a rational discussion with you getting all emotional like that!
Please know that after multiple surgeries on my right hand.... my typing is limited to the use 6 fingers, so the reponses to you questions are slow in coming.
No worries... as a humanist, I understand that you are doing your best considering your circumstances.
Is there a spiritualism (that you accept) that offers anything for existence beyond this life, other than legacy?
What on earth could be wrong with having a legacy? It ranks right up there with Self-Actualization in Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs and Self-Transcendence per Frankl. A legacy is a way to achieve a measure of immortality; and the choices I make in my life impact on the legacy I leave behind, for better or for worse. I may not compose symphonies like Beethoven, or write songs like John Lennon, or poetry like Tennyson; I may not have notoriety like Charles Manson or Princess Diana - but I'm pretty sure that I will, in my own way, leave footprints in my lifetime that others will enjoy. I don't want or need anything more than that.
By the way, I am a Maslow fan - I especially enjoy the possibilities that present themselves via Self-Actualization. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow's_hierarchy_of_needs
Maslow writes the following of self-actualizing people:
- They embrace the facts and realities of the world (including themselves) rather than denying or avoiding them.
- They are spontaneous in their ideas and actions.
- They are creative.
- They are interested in solving problems; this often includes the problems of others. Solving these problems is often a key focus in their lives.
- They feel a closeness to other people, and generally appreciate life.
- They have a system of morality that is fully internalized and independent of external authority.
- They judge others without prejudice, in a way that can be termed objective.
In short, self-actualization is reaching one's fullest potential.
And as far as "hope" goes, what if atheists are correct and there is no such thing as "god", and no such thing as an afterlife? Aren't the theists guilty of trying to sell a false hope (aka "lies") to people, just like the JWs do?
In answer to your question... Yes! BUT... If the atheist are wrong............?
I guess your loving "god" will make sure that I have an eternity in hell to make up for it, won't he/she/it?
I just don't think that it's acceptable to try and pull others out of the hunt because of what you have or haven't found!
We'll have to agree to disagree on that point. Personally, I don't see talking about atheism / humanism as trying to "pull others out of the hunt". I see it as presenting an alternate, viable option for someone to weigh carefully in their "quest". Your claim that atheism undermines a person's search for spiritual meaning in their life belies a fear that your version of spirituality cannot bear up against close scrutiny. If you are so certain that you are right, why not allow ALL the information to be available to whomever wants it, and let people form their own educated opinions on the matter, rather than basically telling atheists to shut up and stop distracting people from your proselytizing? Isn't that kind of like lobbying a Consumer Reports magazine to only feature your product and boycott the competition? That's not fair marketing practice, not by a long shot.
If there is a "god" then life is the ultimate Easter egg hunt. BUT....all we have is 2000 year old instructions on where the eggs are and no one can agree on where to look. in fact alot of hunters are killing each other over the color of the 'unfound' eggs. Ok now Ive had enough of the Bunny debate.
Believe or not..Happy Tuesday anyway.
Asheron
Hey Satanus...
What bugs me, is the guy suggests that people who believe in god are wiser simply because of the fact that they believe in god.
Actually, the point was "who is wiser?" Those that believe in only things that they have seen or those that have an open-mind to think that the universe is not limited to human sensory perceptions.... The first guy that theorized the existence of ultra-violet radiation was a quack too!
If god had personally done some undeniable, major life sustaining act in each individuals' life, it would have some merit
Are you enjoying that air that you're breathing?
