I D Cards First Step Down Slippery Slope?

by Englishman 41 Replies latest jw friends

  • Seeker
    Seeker
    I don't think that is the intention of the government when the issue of these cards came up, do you?

    Nope, it never starts out that way. After all, Mussolini was very popular at first for making the trains run on time. The good intentions of Marx certainly got corrupted quickly.

    Dana, to answer your question, it all comes down to power. Power does corrupt. We've all seen it in the WTS world, haven't we? Well, it's no different in the government, any government. Power is intoxicating. Look at the instant reaction of congresspersons after this crisis -- they want to make laws. Why, weren't the existing laws good enough? Sure they were, if they could be enforced, but that's what congresspersons do, they make laws. They have power, so they use power.

    When wiretapping laws first went into effect decades ago, the intention was good. What ultimately happened? Corrupt FBI officials used it against their "enemies." They gained a power, and eventually began using it in corrupt ways.

    So since this principle is so universal, the solution is to very reluctantly grant power over your life to another human or institution. Again, we learned that lesson from the WTS, right? If you don't give the government a power over you, it can't be used against you later on by corrupt individuals. And remember, this "war" on terrorism is so very open-ended, with no end goal in sight, that it will be with us for many years to come. Any new laws that are created to "help us deal with the crisis" will be around long after their initial purpose has ended. Government grows, not shrinks. Once you grant a power, you rarely get it back.

    How do you decide which power is acceptable to grant the government? You ask youself a simple question: Would that power have helped prevent the disaster if it had been in place at the time? Since we are worried about repeat violence, if the answer is Yes to that question, it may very well be worth giving up that power under the circumstances. If the answer is No, then there is absolutely no way we should give up that power.

    The tricky thing is that politicians will always tell us that we "need" some new law to "prevent" that from happening again. They tell us whether this is true or not. For instance, one new law being considered is a ban on strong cryptography. Did the terrorists use strong cryptography? Actually, they did not. They used plain text Yahoo mail type messages back and forth, and phone calls. So why did the congressperson tell us that the disaster was a reason to ban strong cryptography? Was he just ignorant? Did he not know the facts? No, he knew, but he also knew that the way to get laws passed during a time of public hysteria is to play to the hysteria. If people think the terrorists used strong cryptography, why all the better! Let's pretend this new control will help in the future.

    See the problem? Existing laws could have prevented the terrorists from being successful -- if those existing laws had been applied. For instance, the NSA managed to capture communication between the terrorists where they talked about their plans! Why wasn't this information released? Because the NSA said they didn't examine the communication until after the attack when it was too late. And the terrorists who lived in America were here illegally -- under existing immigration laws. If the existing laws had been enforced, this could have been prevented.

    But no, for a politician, admitting failure isn't the answer -- just make new laws! That will keep the sheep in line for it will make them think they are DOING SOMETHING. The fact that the new laws won't help against future attacks is irrelevant to the politician. They just want power and to get re-elected. Now they can run on the campaign of how they "got tough on terrorism" even though they just behaved like idiots to those of us who listen to more than the nightly newscasts on TV.

    Finally, to get to the national ID card concept, we ask that question above? Would it have helped? No, it would not. There are existing immigration laws that weren't enforced, so why would this have been enforced? And when it comes to creating fake IDs, that's no problems: did you know several of the hijackers had fake passports, of people currently living in the Middle East? Creating fake IDs is trivial, especially, ESPECIALLY if they are computerized. Just crack into the system and bingo! Fake IDs.

    So now you have a populace conditioned to think they are SAFER because of this national ID, when they are in fact not much better off. Years go by and the threat of terrorism fades into the background, but the national ID system is still here and growing in scope every day. Remember, governments don't shrink, they grow, including the department of the National ID system. The government keeps finding new uses for the thing, and soon it becomes mandatory to not only have one, but to carry it at all times. A few cases occur where a serious crime is committed by a person not carrying the ID and then, presto!, new laws are created making a felony not to have your ID. More work for the beauracrats! More budget money! Yaaa!

    How can the authorities tell if you are keeping the law and carrying your ID at all times? Why, spot checks of course, just like drunk driving spot checks that we are being conditioned to accept. Unreasonable search? How dare you question this! Aren't you patriotic? Show me your papers, er, your card. You left it in your other pants? Off to jail for you!

    Far-fetched? Sure. But it's merely an extrapolation of current trends, given the universality of the idea that power corrupts. Once again, think back to our JW days. Remember the blood card when it first came out? Sure was a nice idea, but it was voluntary. Then they began to mandate it by enforcing it at the bookstudy locations. Then you needed it to show at the conventions, etc. It's a process that never fails to happen. Same thing with your Social Security card. When it first came out, authorities swore up and down it would never be used as a national ID. Try to get phone service without it now. Hard to do. It's a process that never fails to happen.

    And since it won't make the world safer against terrorists (it's supposed purpose), it's only true purpose will be to exercise more control over law-abiding citizens. Maybe the authorities will remain forever benign about its use, and no corrupt authority will ever decide to use it for its own ends, or because somebody ticked off somebody else, but this is a chance I'd rather not take. Especially since it won't really help. I hope this explains why, purely on principle, I'd rather not see a national ID system.

  • NameWithheld
    NameWithheld

    Here's the problem -

    You go to buy a coke from a vending machine. You can't unless you first insert your Nat'l ID card. You go to take a jog in the park. Suddenly a uniformed officer stops and demands your ID card. You don't have pockets in your sweat pants so you are detained (and treated automatically as a criminal) until you can produce your papers. This is a BAD idea. It is a way to allow the gov't to monitor your EVERY move whenever they feel like it.

    "I have nothing to worry about 'cause I don't break the law!" You say. Well, what happens when something you consider a personal/constitutional right is suddenly 'against the law'?

    The Nazi's had a really efficent system of papers too. They didn't have much/any terrorism. Perhaps we should mold ourselves after their gov't, after all it worked right? And as long as you obeyed the law as a good little German you were OK. But that law might have required you to mass murder a few Jews, that was OK 'cause the gov't knows best right? It's there to protect you right?

  • Rex B13
    Rex B13

    Everyone should have to carry i.d. cards.
    We have a really nasty world that has been on the brink of the latest kind of thing for awhile. Add to that retinal scans and fingerprints. I don't think us law-abiding citizens should have anything to hide but it's bound to affect the scum of the earth.
    Here's another twist, since the terrorists have affected our national security to the poin that they threaten legitimate government in a warlike fashion, any trials should be under military code with military penalties. If this is a real war and enemy soldiers are in civies, the punishment is swift and extreme.
    Rex

  • Trilobite
    Trilobite

    Here are a couple of good links, I think:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk

    (scroll down to the article on ID cards and links just below the main commentary)

    http://www.privacy.org/pi/activities/idcard/

    T.

  • Trilobite
    Trilobite

    Right Rex,

    And if you've lost your ID card you'll be forced to drink warm mud. If it makes you swell up, lose the power of your reproductive organs and generally gag, then you get shot on the spot. Otherwise you have to wait 6 months to get a new one.

    Of course, if women lose theirs, and if they are virgins then the arresting officer first gets to have his wicked way with them before the mud treatment.

    T.

  • NameWithheld
    NameWithheld
    Everyone should have to carry i.d. cards.
    We have a really nasty world that has been on the brink of the latest kind of thing for awhile. Add to that retinal scans and fingerprints. I don't think us law-abiding citizens should have anything to hide but it's bound to affect the scum of the earth.

    And when the 'law' requires you to kill all Jews/Arabs/Whoever what then? Think that card is such a good idea? I admit this is far fetched, but you might have thought the same thing as a German 100 years ago. There is NO REASON to have anything like this. It WOULD NOT have done a thing to prevent the attacks on the 11th. They would have faked the Nat'l ID just like they did a Passport.

    Outlaw guns, and only outlaws will have guns. See what I mean?

  • conflicted
    conflicted

    I guess I'm missing the point, the last time I checked the US was a democracy of the people, not socialist order, not a police state, not a fascist society.

    Apparantly a national ID card makes us one of those - take your pick as to which one fits your far-fetched scenarios.

    I have heard the news reports regarding these cards, nowhere have I heard anything about it being manditory to carry it - like a drivers license, you carry it when you need it, don't carry it when it isn't necessary.

    I guess I'm naive, because you all seem to know where this will end, whereas I can't foretell the future. Do you really think a voting, democratic society is going to let George Bush become the next Hitler or Musolini - give me a break!

  • Seeker
    Seeker

    For anyone who wondered if Rex puts much thought into his posts, notice what he said versus what I wrote, and see who really thinks about these issues.

    I don't think us law-abiding citizens should have anything to hide

    To those who use this argument, whether for this or for wiretapping or encryption, I have but one question:

    Do you live in a home with opaque walls?

    You do? Why, what are you hiding? No law-abiding citizen would mind living in a see-through home.

    Oh wait, you now say there are times when you do like your privacy after all? Thought so.

  • Trilobite
    Trilobite

    conflicted,

    America was a democracy in the 50s, yes? Ask a black person living in the south what it was like.

    T.

  • NameWithheld
    NameWithheld

    OK, what happens when G Bush (or whoever) delcares martial law and shuts down the elections "in the interest of fighting our enemies". Far-fetched? Yes. Possible? Yes. Don't kid yourself, the people w/ the guns have the power. When the Nat'l Gaurd comes to your town and says 'stay in your homes or be shot' that democracy is over. I'm not a consperacy theory nut, but I'm not naive either. The gov't is interested mainly in growing it's power/wealth, not in the people's best interest. Abuse by those in positions of athority are well documented.

    Again, this is a long shot, but why give the gov't another peice of your freedom when it will do no good? What are you trying to accomplish? Like some have noted, we already have a nat'l ID, it's called the SS#. Try doing ANYTHING without that #. You can't. And when they created it in the 30's they SWORE it would not be used for that. Now it is. Let history be your guide. Our 'democracy' is more socialistic then ever before in history. We all expect the federal gov't do do everything for us. That's not the intentions that the founders of this country had. They wanted a very weak and limited federal gov't.

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit