I D Cards First Step Down Slippery Slope?

by Englishman 41 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Seeker

  I guess I'm naive, because you all seem to know where this will end, whereas I can't foretell the future.

  We can see the past, and past history shows the potential for these things to eventually be abused. In that way, the future can easily be predicted: just see what has consistently happened in the past and expect it to happen again in the future. Works every time.

  No, I don't think this card by itself will turn us into a totalitarian state, but if you look at all the do-good laws that have been enacted "for our good" over the past few decades, and extrapolate into the future, it's not hard to see where this could turn into one more step in that direction. Not saying it is a guarantee, just that it is a possibility. And since I already outlined how this will have very little effect on terrorism, what's the point?

  Do you really think a voting, democratic society is going to let George Bush become the next Hitler or Musolini

  No, not Bush personally, for these things take time. But remember, the people of Germany got to elect their leaders too, until one day they lost that choice. All it takes for that to happen here is a constitutional crises that causes the government to declare martial law and susped rights. Far-fetched, but not impossible, as seen in other governments around the world throughout history. Germany is not the only country where a Hitler could develop.

  Again, I'm not saying any of this is going to happen, or even be likely. I oppose the National ID card purely on the principle of not giving away your power unless it will do a lot of good. I've yet to see any credible argument that this would help prevent terrorism. Israel has checkpoints all over the place. They still have terrorism.
• 

  NameWithheld

  I have heard the news reports regarding these cards, nowhere have I heard anything about it being manditory to carry it - like a drivers license, you carry it when you need it, don't carry it when it isn't necessary.

  Ah, only when it's needed 'eh? Well, what if you 'need' it to drive? Purchase food? Walk into public parks? Walk to the store? That's a pipe dream. We create that ID and it WILL ALWAYS BE WITH YOU. End of story.
• 

  Trilobite

  Seeker,

  Rex is guided purely by his fanatical religious fervor. I wonder how he would feel if it were made illegal to protest outside abortion clinics? Certainly, one could make a valid case that rightwing religious nurtcases have engaged in terrorism against doctors and law abiding citizens seeking an abortion. Perhaps, for Rex, his ID card should have encoded "born again Christian, with anti-abortion tendencies" laminated into it. Then, if ever a clinic were attacked in Rex's vicinity, he could be hauled in and made to sit with all those big sweaty guys for a day or two. Of course, with half the administration being born-again then maybe not.

  T.
• 

  Rex B13

  Quit whining about other threads, troglodyte.
  R.
• 

  Abaddon

  ID Cards have been mooted by British governments over the years.

  Each time the public outcry has forced a backdown.

  It would seem the government might take advantage of the current situation to introduce ID cards.

  That would be a bad thing. ID Cards would not really stop WTC like events. ID Cards would just allow the police to be used as a political tool by a government.

  Note; I mean COULD, not WOULD, but why give the opportunity? For all the talk of land of the free, in the UK you have wide personal freedoms - if you exclude guns, but that's a cultural difference - and being forced to have an ID Card at all times subtly changes the balance; you need ID as you are assumed to be potentially guilty, as opoosed to being presumed innocent and therefore not required to carry ID.

  You do not need photo ID for Credit cards or Cheques in the UK, although soon most Credit cards will have a photo on them, so that's not an excuse.

  Keep on rocking in the free world...
• 

  jelly

  My biggest problem with ID cards is that they are very easy to forge. I really don’t think they will accomplish much. Biometrics on the other hand could make terrorism very difficult. I could foresee that in a couple of years you would have to do a retinal scan at every Mass transit terminal (airlines, trains, etc). I could see some industry having their employees likewise scan to get to work; places like refineries, chemical plants, and other sensitive jobs. This would make certain aspects of our life a little less free but not interfere with our general day to day living.

  Also congress is debating adding a ‘sunset clause’ to all the new legislation they are talking about. What this means is that the legislation would expire in two years unless congress votes to continue it.

  Jelly
• 

  outnfree

  ID cards are a VERY bad idea, and I had no idea until I read this thread that E-man was talking about the same being suggested in Britain as in the States!!!

  Seeker's essay was right to the point. There is no need to abridge our freedoms anywhere if the end result will not accomplish the purported goal. National ID cards will NOT curtail terrorism, thus one is right to imagine that the purported goal is not the REAL goal!

  Jelly writes "Also congress is debating adding a ‘sunset clause’ to all the new legislation they are talking about. What this means is that the legislation would expire in two years unless congress votes to continue it." -- bold mine.

  Therein lies the danger others were pointing to. HISTORY DEMONSTRATES that it is more likely Congress would vote to continue the National ID program than to scrap it. They would "find a use" for the card program which has already cost taxpayers so much to produce, implement and legislate.

  In the States, when paying in cash, have you ever been asked by the cashier for your zip code? I have. When asked why they need that information, the cashier will likely respond "I don't know." Some are savvy enough to know that it's to do a marketing study. Where is the store's customer base? This aids in deciding on where to target direct mail advertising, for example. You may or may not wish to help them with their marketing study.

  Have you ever been asked for your social security number in a situation where you are NOT applying for a job? Why is this necessary? It is not. Your social security number is the means to track your work history and your tax contributions in order that you may receive governmental benefits under the Social Security Administration's programs. Period. Yet many places ask for this information purely for identification purposes. They have no right to it. Sometimes, you can get the service you are requesting without providing it. Sometimes, not. But your SSN is not really any of their business.

  I personally refuse to bank anywhere where finger print identification is mandatory. (Bad enought that I'm being photographed at the ATM!) And I find it sad that teachers and other public servants in some states are required to be finger-printed as a condition of employment. What happened to the principle "innocent until proven guilty"?

  And although the very idea of retinal scans is personally abhorrent to me, I think such a system would be far more effective at tracking criminals' and terrorists' activities than would National ID cards.
  Of course, I would probably refuse to "register" my retina and finally become a criminal myself...

  outnfree

  Par dessus toutes choses, soyez bons. La bonte est ce qui ressemble le plus a Dieu et ce qui desarme le plus les hommes -- Lacordaire
• 

  Englishman

  Let me give you an example of a "good idea" turning into an infringement of liberty. It's the postal system.

  I'm not sure how the US zip code works, but I'm betting that it is similar to the UK's postal code. We were all sold the idea that the Royal Mail would be much more efficient if we had a numbered code for our homes. I live near Bristol City, in area 23, so my code is BS23 1BN, the 1 BN applies to just 6 homes in my road.

  Now, what happens if I apply for a loan or a bank account? Before any details are taken about me personally, I am vetted for "Domestic Profile", and this done by using my postal code. My Postal Code classifies me as to my likely income, the rateable value of my home, what the crime figures are for that street so that any income protection policy is sufficiently loaded, my car insurance company can even tell whether I have off-road parking or not!

  Now, if we have National ID cards, every time that they are checked, our location and activity will be recorded and eventually a personal profile will be built up about our activities. The ID card will link us to what car we drive, where we bank, where we drink, where we worship, what political party we belong to, maybe even where we have sex!

  At the moment I still have some limited choices as to whom knows what about me. Bring in an ID card and all those choices will soon be gone.

  Englishman.

  Nostalgia isn't what it used to be....
• 

  safe4kids

  Seeker,

  Thanks for the explanation of your views. It helped me clarify what it was about all of this that bothered me. The fact is that you're right, ID cards wouldn't have any significant impact on stopping terrorist activities; it would be childishly simple to forge such cards. I think the main thing that bothers me about it all is that, once we have em, we ain't anever gonna get rid of em!! And while I agree that the worst case scenario most likely would never come to pass, it is still rather chilling to consider that this could be one step along that road. A step I am not willing to take. If I could see that such a route might be effective in halting such actions on the part of terrorists, I might be willing to forego a bit of my freedom, you know for the "greater good"...but what's the point? And I don't want to give up any more of my personal power than I absolutely have to.
  Eman, thanks for that example. There is already too much of my personal information and activities 'out there'; why would I want to increase that??! At this point in time, I see ID cards as a step backwards, not forwards, as regards freedom. Until I have hard evidence to the contrary, I will have to say 'thanks, but no thanks' to this issue.

  Trilobite,
  

  America was a democracy in the 50s, yes? Ask a black person living in the south what it was like.

  Amen! Freedom in our democracy has not always been distributed evenly, nor is it now. I fear that an ID card would be abused the same way. Perhaps not right at first, but eventually? Worrisome.

  Dana
• 

  Seeker

  the last time I checked the US was a democracy of the people

  Check again. We do NOT have a democracy. We have a republic (remember, "...and to the republic for which it stands..."). What is the difference? In a democracy, all of us would be voting for each new law. Instead, we have a republic, which means we vote for people to go to Washington and vote on laws on our behalf. They are supposed to vote the way we tell them, but in reality they usually vote the way the group with the most money contributed wants them to vote.

  One of the biggest myths in America is that we have a democracy. We have elements of democracy, but we, the people, do not have a direct voice.