Paul's "full gospel" did NOT mention 144,000...

by bebu 24 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • bebu
    bebu

    From reflecting on what Paul writes in his letters, it is obvious he had NEVER taught anything like the WTS doctrines concerning the little flock (144,000) or the slave class, or any other unique JW gospel concept. Yet he was clear that he was preaching the entire gospel everywhere.

    I picked out the following verses (you can find more but these are the most obvious) to show that 1) Paul said his authority for the gospel he preached was given by God; 2) that he preached the gospel fully; and that he condemned any person or angel who preached a different gospel.

    Have you ever noticed, then, that though Paul clarified the gospel in all of his letters in a variety of ways, the odd doctrines of the JWs/WTS were never once mentioned by Paul? How is it that Paul could fail to mention such essential points (according to the WTS), or even fail to give even one passing mention of 144,000, "little flock" (or even "sheep"), "slave" or "class"? None of these words (or concept of 'class') are in any of Paul's letters. (Paulused the word 'anointed' once in 2 Cor 1:21 ["Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, 22 set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come"], which was directed to ALL the saints in a large region, not a subset class.)

    Paul stated that he has been proclaiming the FULL gospel of Christ--that is, the death and resurrection of Christ which reconciles all men to God and each other, and gives life. If it was full, how is it that he could have overlooked what is supposedly essential truths?

    Anyway... tell me what you think.

    bebu

    Rom 15:19 So from Jerusalem all the way around to Illyricum, I have fully proclaimed the gospel of Christ.

    Acts 15:7 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: "Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you thatthe Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe.

    Acts 20:27 For I have not hesitated to proclaim to you the wholewill of God.

    Rom 1:17 For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."

    1CO 15:1 Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2 By this gospel [the one Paul was preaching] you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

    2 Cor 4:4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5 For we do not preach ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake. 6 For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

    2 Cor 11:4 For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough.

    Gal 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!

    GAL 2:1 Fourteen years later I went up again to Jerusalem, this time with Barnabas. I took Titus along also. 2 I went in response to a revelation and set before them the gospel that I preach among the Gentiles. ...4 This matter arose because some false brothers had infiltrated our ranks to spy on the freedom we have in Christ Jesus and to make us slaves. 5 We did not give in to them for a moment, so that the truth of the gospel might remain with you.

    COL 1:21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. 22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation-- 23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. [<----] This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

    2TI 2:8 Remember Jesus Christ, raised from the dead, descended from David. Thisis my gospel, 9 for which I am suffering even to the point of being chained like a criminal. But God's word is not chained.

  • blondie
    blondie

    The number 144,000 is only mentioned in the book of Revelation which was written around 96 CE by the apostle John.

    Before that, the Christians had no concept that there was even a hint that there could be a finite number of Christ's followers.

    Paul likely was killed by Nero in 66 CE, 30 years before Revelation was written.

    The more compelling thing to me is the symbolism of Revelation and how the WTS chooses when something is symbolic and when it is not to fit their doctrines.

    Blondie

  • moggy lover
    moggy lover

    Yeah, Blondie, as when "symbolic" 12000 from "symbolic" tribes of "symbolic" of "Israel" mysteriously makes up a literal 1440000 "spiritual" Israelites.

    Erm... now lets see.... thats symbolic 12000, plus symbolic 12000, plus symbolic 12000 plus symbolic 12000 plus symbolic 12000 plus symbolic 12000 plus symbolic 12000 plus symbolic 12000 plus symbolic 12000 plus symbolic 12000 plus symbolic 12000 plus symbolic 12000............ makes... oh yeah I get it...... a literal 1440000 !!!

    If I told my boss that I worked 12000 symbolic hours twelve times over and that she now owes me for 144000 literal hours she would give me a swift kick up the arse, and merrily send me on my way.

    However.... coming to think of it..... I wonder if the WTS would pay up?

    Cheers.

  • moggy lover
    moggy lover

    Ooops... I seem to have put too many noughts in there. Of course its 144000 not 1440000. But you get my drift

    Cheers

  • M.J.
    M.J.

    What DOES the WTS say the 12 tribes and 12,000 stand for (symbolically) anyway?

  • bebu
    bebu
    The more compelling thing to me is the symbolism of Revelation and how the WTS chooses when something is symbolic and when it is not to fit their doctrines.

    Yes, they are a chameleon with their doctrines and reasons. Within one verse (Rev 7:4), insisting that"144,000" literal and "from the tribes of Israel" as symbolic!

    I am not trying to say that Christians must practice like those of old. It's just that there are glaring omissions of key doctrines in the "full gospel". That omission speaks volumes!

    ("New light" was never mentioned by Paul either, for that matter!)

    However.... coming to think of it..... I wonder if the WTS would pay up?

    Errrrr... no...

    bebu

  • bennyk
    bennyk

    The 1995 WT refutes the Society's own doctrine re: only 144 000 going to heaven.

    wt95 08/01 page 11 paragraph 8:

    8 When Israel rejected and killed His Son, Jesus Christ, God finally rejected her. So no longer was that Jewish nation a figurative wife to Him, nor was He the Father and Teacher of her wayward sons. (Matt. 23: 37,38) However, Israel was only a typical, or symbolic, wife. The apostle Paul quoted Isaiah 54: 1, which speaks of a "barren woman" who is different and distinct from "the woman with the husbandly owner," the nation of natural Israel. Paul reveals that anointed Christians are children of the "barren woman," whom he calls "Jerusalem above." This antitypical figurative woman consists of God's heavenly organization of spirit creatures. -- Galatians 4: 26,27. (end of quote).

    The scripture thus indicates (using the WTS' own interpretation of the 'women') that the number of anointed Christians exceeds that of fleshly Israel. The cumulative number of natural Israelites between the Exodus and the coming of Christ Jesus was in the many tens of millions; therefore, many more than 144 000 are spirit-anointed Christians.

  • skyking
    skyking

    Please quit making sense, it will only confuse the Borg members that are on this site.

  • yesidid
    yesidid

    Anyway... tell me what you think.

    Well Bebu, I think you think very good thoughts.

    The point is that if the 144,000 teaching was so important, so essential that

    one can now be disfelllowshipped for not accepting it, Jesus would have made

    sure Paul knew about it. After all, it was Paul and his converts who took Jesus to

    the world.

    The fact that Jesus led Paul to believe that he had been given all the knowledge

    required for Christians to be saved shows the 144,000 teaching is irrevelant.

    That isn't even touching on the laughability of the WT's interperation of Reverlation.

    You make an excellent point Bebu, oneI had never thought of.

    Thank you,

    yesidid

    to

  • bebu
    bebu

    Thanks, yesidid.

    The point is that if the 144,000 teaching was so important, so essential that

    one can now be disfelllowshipped for not accepting it, Jesus would have made

    sure Paul knew about it. After all, it was Paul and his converts who took Jesus to

    the world.

    The fact that Jesus led Paul to believe that he had been given all the knowledge

    required for Christians to be saved shows the 144,000 teaching is irrevelant.

    But you made the point more succinctly than I did!

    bebu

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