Re: Paul's "full gospel" did NOT mention 144,000...
And for good reason...
The Pauline epistles were/are for the Gentiles, the "body of Christ," a/k/a "the church" (which, from 70 AD forward when the Temple was destroyed, would include Jewish believers as well).
Revelation chapters 1-3 refers to the synagogues of Jewish believers in the first century.
Revelation 4 onward applies to events that will take place once the "body of Christ" has been taken to heaven.
The 144,000 will be chosen from literal Jews during the seven-year tribulation.
The way I understand scripture now (and still learning... or I should say RE-learning) -- and anyone can take this or leave it -- is that all the books of Paul (Romans through Philemon) are most specifically directed to the Gentiles; whereas ALL of the OT --AND ALL the Four Gospels -- AND most of the book of Revelation -- ALL Applies to the Jewish believers back then, and in the future (Revelation -- which is also directed to the unbelieving nations, of course).
If Paul wrote Hebrews (which many believe he did), it is also addressed to the Jewish believers.
No Gentile nations were in on the blessed hope UNTIL the Lord sent Paul to the Gentiles (Romans through Philemon).
(The "preparation" for the 12-Jewish apostles to "get that through their thick skulls" was when the Lord sent Peter to Cornelius; but the widespread preaching to the Gentiles as a whole did not occur until the Lord commissioned Paul to go to the Gentiles).
So the entire counsel for the "body of Christ" (commonly referred to as "the church" no-thanks to KJV) from the time of Paul through today are the books of Romans through Philemon. ALL believers during that time frame, from the time the Lord sent Paul to the Gentiles in the first century and through and until the last "gentile" is brought into the body, ALL have the HEAVENLY HOPE, including those who will be "caught away to meet the Lord in the air" for those still alive when He comes for his "body."
Hence, the 144,000 applies to literal-Jewish believers who will be chosen during the seven-year tribulation.
The "little flock" were the Jews out of the "little" nation of Israel.
The "other sheep who are not of this [Jewish] fold" are the Gentiles, who Jesus said he also would "bring."
It all makes fabulous good sense once this "dividing of the truth aright" is understood. And the two things that have helped me in this regard are:
1. Understanding "Replacement Theology" -- which the WT teaches -- ie, that all scripture clearly pertaining to literal Israel somehow mysteriously no longer applies to Israel, hence, REPLACEMENT Theology, which is a big fat lie and just confuses the correct understanding of scripture to the enth degree.
2. Understanding that the Pauline epistles apply to the "body of Christ" and the rest of scripture applies to Israel and the Jewish people, etc.
This is not to say we cannot and should not read, pay attention to and benefit from the OT, the Four Gospels, Hebrews, Revelation, etc., but as for what applies to the "body of Christ" today (Gentile and/or Jewish or any other ethnic group) is all found in Paul's epistles.
When the "body of Christ" is taken away to him in heaven, the seven-year tribulation will ensue where God turns his attention back to his unbelieving wayward nation of Israel and also to the unbelieving Gentile nations, and none of us, not anyone, HAS to be around for that because, as they say, "it ain't gonna be a pretty picture."
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Sources for understanding this "dividing of the truth aright" are:
* "Through the Bible w/Les Feldick" (website and Bible study-TV program): www.lesfeldick.org .
* Miles J. Stanford (now deceased, but all his writings are still on the web: http://www.withchrist.org/MJS/index.htm) .
* And the separate WithChrist.org website: http://withchrist.org/center.htm .
There may be others but these are the ones I am aware of.
Hope this helps.
abbagail
Paul's "full gospel" did NOT mention 144,000...
by bebu 24 Replies latest watchtower bible
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abbagail
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Zico
Hi bebu, Good post! Revelation also says that the 144,000 will all be virgins. The WTS says this is figurative as well.
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M.J.
virgins...and all men also.
One other point, which as been discussed before. If you take the bible at its word on the number of conversions to Christianity in the first century, you can easily come up with over a hundred thousand...so especially by the end of the first century when 1 John was written it does not make sense that the letter would not place any limitations on who can be "born of God".
For example:
1 John 5:1
[ Faith in the Son of God ] Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well.1 John 4:7
[ God's Love and Ours ] Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.1 John 2:29
If you know that he is righteous, you know that everyone who does what is right has been born of him. -
Santisimo
Paul NEVER met Jesus and therefore has no authority over anything. Paul converted to Christianity long after Jesus died. Paul created his own religion in the same way the JWs are creating their own today. Unfortunately, there will will always be millions of people who are willing to follow the path of the WTS because they are not capable of seeing for themselves what God REALLY wants from mankind. Paul "preached" to people who were less educated than he was. If he really did know what he was talking about there would have obtained a larger following. Instead, all he accomplished was the creation of a small cult. Had it not been for the murderous Constantine who hijacked Paul's religion, it would have remained unknown til this day.
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bebu
abbagail, I personally hold my views with a light grip. I've learned that esp. with Revelation, there are lots of plausible viewpoints (but none of them include the WTS's).
santismo, whatever your personal view of Paul is, the point of this thread is that the 144,000 and other unique JW doctrines are not reflected in any of his letters (whether you accept them or not). Especially in light of his several comments about preaching the full gospel of Christ, he doesn't show even a faint awareness of any of the concepts that are central to the JWs' gospel. There are no allusions, nothing.
Another loudly missing doctrine is that 'Jesus' body dissipated into gases'. There is nothing, no word or concept at all, to indicate this was ever Paul's belief or in his gospel. Is it plausible at all to think that Paul's audience, when hearing him preach that "Christ had died and rose again", ALL of them immediately understood: "Oh! Jesus died and his body became gases and his spirit went into another body... and that is the one that Paul saw"? --That's a ton of content in Paul's simple phrase "Jesus died and rose again." And did his audience also hear from Paul that Michael was Jesus' alter ego? Michael is never mentioned by name even once by Paul. That omission also speaks volumes.
Again, my point is: if the JWs pride themselves on following the Bible, and believe that their teaching is the same as what was originally preached (that is, uncorrupted), then why does Paul show no sign of ever teaching what they teach?
bebu
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james_woods
This is a true story about the 144,000. The elders called on me and challenged my belief in the "literal number". I told them, no, I don't believe it. (this was long after I quit going to meetings, but it took them a while to come around to talk about it).
The number one guy reads me Revelation about the Lamb and the 144,000.
He then says "now, James - how many Lambs are there here? One, right? So that is a LITERAL one Lamb! Now, how many 144,000 are there? So, that is a literal 144,000, right?"
I kid you not.
I, of course, looked at him after a pointed silence, and asked "so, you are saying that Christ is LITERALLY a LAMB?"
Subject got changed to "following God's organization no matter what, they will correct it in time if anything is wrong".
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james_woods
BTW, Bebu, I forgot to say that you have made an impressive display of logic on this - excellent analysis, IMHO.
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Narkissos
Your point is certainly valid to a JW who will admit no contradiction in the NT. However, I think Paul's Gospel was only valid and "full" in his (and his disciples', and the later Marcionites', and the still later Protestants') eyes. It is flatly contradicted, imo, in other NT texts such as the Gospel of Matthew or the Epistle of James.
Of course this has little bearing on the 144,000 issue.
On the resurrection, otoh, I would be more cautious, since Paul describes the resurrected Jesus as a spirit (or rather THE Spirit, 1 Corinthians 15,45; 2 Corinthians 3,17; cf. Galatians 4,6; 1 Peter 3,18), and identifies his "body" to the church. While he does not speculate on Jesus' body "dissolving in gases" he apparently knows of no "empty tomb" story either. This makes perfect sense within the docetic tendencies of his overall christology (note the use of "likeness" in Romans 8,3; Philippians 2,7).
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bebu
He then says " now, James - how many Lambs are there here? One, right? So that is a LITERAL one Lamb! Now, how many 144,000 are there? So, that is a literal 144,000, right ?"
I kid you not.
I, of course, looked at him after a pointed silence, and asked "so, you are saying that Christ is LITERALLY a LAMB ?"
James, that is a VERY funny story! What a perfect reply from you!!
Hi Narkissos! I was counting on you to show up.
While he does not speculate on Jesus' body "dissolving in gases" he apparently knows of no "empty tomb" story either.
But surely Paul must have been familiar with the empty tomb story even though he did not elaborate in the ways of the gospel writers, since he spent time with the apostles (esp Peter and James, and later more of them at the council. (Gal 1 and 2, Acts 15). I don't think it strange that he does not repeat an "empty tomb" story, but merely refers to it in general. Was Christ buried somewhere other than a tomb, according to Paul? I have never seen anything to adequately convince me of that.
Btw... if Protestants and Catholics share the Apostles Creed (which is veryshort!), then I think that the "full gospel" should logically be found somehow in that. "Full" does not therefore appear to mean exhaustive so much as primary. It seems to have been used as a summary of doctrines for baptismal candidates in Rome. For those unfamiliar with it:
http://www.creeds.net/ancient/apostles.htm
...Thanks for all your comments! Anyone else...?
bebu
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LittleToe
MJ:
virgins...and all men also.
That explains why there's only 144,000 in the whole of human history, then