Is marriage an outdated institution (page 2)

garybuss

I don't think marriage can be outdated because I'm not aware it was ever dated.

Divorce isn't the failure of the marriage, it's one concession of the failure. I suspect virtually every marriage fails. The marriage fails when both partners wish they weren't married. The divorce is just the admission and the end of the failure.

Survival of the partnership is not proof of the success of the partnership. Achievement of the goals set at the beginning of the partnership is proof of success of the partnership.

Two people get in the car and they decide to go to California. They're gonna call it the California trip. Forty years later they're still in the car together but they never made it to California, was that a successful trip?

Two people start a business partnership with the goal to make money. They never make any money, but the two are still in the business partnership 30 years later. Was that partnership successful?

Here in the United States the government has placed huge incentives for people not to be married legally. In the United States, virtually all minor children are adopted by the state. A single mother with minor children can get paid housing, food payments, free medical treatment, and grants for school for themselves. They get all this going, and the father, or boyfriend moves into the free Federal housing with the "single" mother and the children.

kid-A

Humans are ritualistic and seek out the comfort and imagined "stability" of institutions, even though this is largely an illusion as the 60% divorce rate certainly testifies to.

I think certain elements of traditional marriage, as a tradition, are completely outmoded. For example, the idea of a woman changing her name to her husbands, is, IMHO, ridiculous. In fact, I insisted my wife keep her maiden name as I was so opposed to this antiquated "name-change" concept, as though the husband now somehow legally "owned" the woman and her name.

As for the wedding ceremony itself, ours was wonderful and like a dream come true. It was a civil ceremony since we are atheists, but it provided us 1) a ritualized ceremony to publicly declare our devotion to each other in front of family and friends, 2) an opportunity for a great party! and 3) a day in our shared lives that we will cherish until we die and look back on with nostalgia and affection. In short, it was simply a fantastic experience that we were able to share with our loved ones and with each other....

Its impossible to generalize because every individuals relationship is unique and different. IMHO, marriage represents a psychological 'space' for a couple to be in that is simply different than the space people living together share. Why? Because there is no simple "escape" clause. You have both made a legal and ceremonial committment to one another that, if you really are in love, does mean something very profound and deep. Having said that, I know many long-term couples that have been living together for years and are as devoted and happy with each other as my wife and I are.....you just never know....so, to each their own!

free2beme

Interesting points, on why marriage has been a part of our culture ...

One of the reasons it exist

Marriage has been around since before recorded history. One obvious reason for it was the creation of offspring. But a far more important reason for marriage was the cementing of alliances. Difficulties abounded in the ancient world, and the more allies you had the safer you were. Marriages were the preferred method for sealing alliances between families, clans, tribes, and ultimately nations.

The idea of marriage based on romantic love is actually a relatively recent innovation. The true purpose of marriage throughout the ages was advancement of family (clan, national -- whatever) interest. That's why throughout history most marriages were arranged. There was no romance or love involved -- this was business. Great Question.

How it is seen worldwide

While we see marriage as a romantic event that brings two people together for love. In many countries to this day, marriage is still used as a brokerage deal to gain power, wealth or other material gains. Arranged marriages, which are common in these situations, are looked down upon by Americans who seek romance and love. Yet the failure of arranged marriage versus those romantic ones, is not even comparable. As arranged marriages have only a 10% failure rate, versus a 60% failure rate with the romantic love ones.

Marriage is also seen in many countries, as something you need to earn the right to do. It is looked down upon, by many cultures, to marry when you can not afford to support a wife. The idea of marrying, and thinking that you will work the details out later, is something truly American. In many countries, to get married, you have to get approval by the tribal elders and if you are a flake or someone who will not support your wife, they will not approve your marriage. The father of the bride may even have you exiled or killed, if you pursue their daughter more and do not listen to what the tribal elders have said.

Marriage is something I think we see as part of a dream. To be able to find Mr. or Ms. right and live happily ever after, as that is what our parents did, our grandparents and so on. In reality, the marriage of those generations was passed on as legal tradition, and they often lived past the romantic falsehood and would honestly probably tell you that they had serious moments of doubt in the union. Although, until recent decades, divorce was not an easy option. So they just dealt with it. Personally, I think marriage is encouraged and exist today, as it is a multi million dollar industry, and like many parts of society that makes money off of us, marriage is sold to us .... to be the thing we need. Just don't look behind the curtain.

Alpheta

Marriage is an important legal concept, because it provides certain financial and material benefits and protections under the law. Just think about Barney Frank's surviving "partner" - he could not be legally married to him - and he got screwed out of Frank's pension as a result, because he is not, technically, a "surviving spouse". Social Security law, tax law, tax breaks, all give benefits to married couples, particularly if they have children.

In my case, it is only through marriage that I can provide a level of health care benefits (through employer-provide group health insurance) and via Social Security survivor's benefits to my significant other, who is a Canadian citizen. Yes, I can leave him all the rest of my assets and estate via a Will or in trust, but there are some benefits that can only be provided via marriage. And hell, we've been together now seven years and counting, and we're not running away from each other screaming and pulling out hair out.

For the legal and benefit reasons, and to ultimately make that personal "legal" commitment, it's something we want to do. That "legal" commitment has a meaning above and beyond the dollars and tax laws that apply; it's an intangible that, in our case, means certain things. These things will vary by couple. It could just be as simple as the fact that at 55, we're both old-fashioned. Personally, I don't think the institution of marriage will ever be outdated - just because of those "intangibles".

LittleToe

It's a rite of passage that is an important part of our sociological growth. To reduce it to statistics is to completely misunderstand the way our minds work. It's like ignoring the maternal instinct.

I'm kinda amused to see a twenty-something say "never"

Never say never, my dear

garybuss

In the United States marriage and dying are the two best way to transfer property tax free. The 2 million limit doesn't apply to marriage. That's a big reason same sex marriages are not legal for tax transfer benefits.

In the United States legal marriage might be the best way to provide financial security for the minor children but I'm not sure about that. I advocate establishment and documentation of parentage of the dependant children for the insurance and Social Security survivor benefits.

free2beme

What is being said then, is that marriage is a law issue, and not the romantic love thing. If that is the case, then amending the law could actually harm the amount of people getting married.

garybuss

Romantic love is the worst possible reason to form a business partnership, which is what a legal marriage is in the United States. Cut flowers last longer than romantic love.

To understand legal marriage in the United States, just read up on family law. Marriage is the only contract in the United States that two people can enter into but the same two people by mutual written agreement, can not dissolve. A lease can be cancelled with a second piece of paper signed by all principles, a marriage can only be ended by a judge.

free2beme

I agree with that. I also think, that is why they feel so many younger people are not getting married. They say the marriage rate of younger people, is dropping considerable. As a Witness, I thought it was common for people to seek marriage. When I left the religion, I was often surprised in the early days, to see how few people felt they would ever marry. I think a lot of it comes from the idea, that we live in a society of children raised by divorced parents and with that a lesson was learned that it just might not be worth it.

outoftheorg

Marriage in the older times was "partly" due to the problems of a legal nature when one spouse passed away, leaving property and rights of ownership between children, parents, uncles,brothers etc. and the surviving spouse and the next door neighbor.

Now imagine how even more interesting it gets if mom and pop and the kids all died. Who gets what??

The various actions and problems of greedy people led to more and more restrictions and laws and as always the growing legal laws and definitions of marriage and spouses and live in mates and children and grandpa and who owned this and who is responsible for this and that, led to more and more laws and restrictions.

The result is a system that sorta works today and can be used or misused.

Outoftheorg

Is marriage an outdated institution

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