Marvin, I understand a lot more than what you might ASSume. Don't give people false hope without backing it up. Your suppositions are interesting but doing any of your recommendations, esp. with the police is.....oh never mind. You're supposed to be one of the intellects on this board. I almost forgot. And who says they'll have no basis for eccl. privilege?? You????
Judicial Committee Preparation
by Marvin Shilmer 157 Replies latest jw friends
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Marvin Shilmer
In the past the Watchtower Society has successfully argued an ecclesiastical privilege exists protecting judicial records from court review. Recently, however, a California ruling and appeal has seen through this argument and concluded that judicial hearings are, in effect, investigatory/prosecutorial and not within historical and legal parameters of penitential communications, which is the underpinning of ecclesiastical privilege.
Asking and noting response/answers to the questions recommended only enriches the finding above.
As for constitutional rights, one of these is free speech, which includes recording incidents involving one’s own person. The Watchtower Society will find it increasingly difficult to argue for its constitutional rights as a religious organization if its religious policies forbid exercise of basic constitutional freedoms, such as taking meticulous notes of one’s own activities.
Marvin Shilmer
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jgnat
Marvin Shilmer: The Watchtower Society will have a hard time explaining to a court of law why it produces documents about your person yet refuses you access to those same documents.
Problem is, a "Judicial Committee" is not recognized as a court. There's that little thing called separation of church and state in operation here. JC's are not obliged to protect the accused's rights in any shape or form. The secular courts have ruled consistently that they are not interested in JC inner workings, and would not deign to reverse JC judgements. All that pomp and circumstance is viewed, by secular courts, as internal religious workings. People, in theory, have the right to walk away any time they like.
jwfacts. JCs are not to help a person, but are purely courts for judging the person.
There is no justice in the JC process. The only way a person can protect themselves from it's abuses is to refuse to participate. Of course, we know the kinds of cruel social sanctions the WTBTS wields when they want to. SURE members are free to leave, but at what price?I think jwfacts laid out the options succintly. How a person walks away from a JC all depends on what they want out of it. What they CANNOT expect is justice.
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Inkie
In harmony with what Marvin has stated, I would also request that specific members of my family attend this judicial committee. In so doing, you may quote the Society's literature (Aid Book, various Watchtowers, Insight volumes, etc.) regarding "judicial" matters in ancient Israel always being public events (in the City square, etc.) where justice was meted out. Tell them that because your memory is faulty and because your family will want to know the specifics of your judicial hearing, that you would rather have one or two members of your family present to hear a public judicial meeting (in harmony with God's written will). That way, you won't have to remember everything that is stated in the hearing and your family will see and hear the star tactics of the committee. You are not asking their permission, you are exercising your rights as a Christian member of the congregation, and the rights of others in the congregation (your family members) to know and hear the truth of its goings on. If they decline, your off. But know that you and your family have the scriptural rights to be present and have it not be a star chamber meeting.
Inkie
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Inkie
jgnat:
True it is not a court in the secular view; but in the religious and biblical view it is indeed a court. Read the Society's literature on this subject. IT IS A COURT such that you can "appeal" their decision.
Inkie
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kid-A
"There is no justice in the JC process. The only way a person can protect themselves from it's abuses is to refuse to participate."
Exactly! Except I would go one step further and add that they can only abuse you if you let them abuse you!
I mean honestly, who gives a crap about what a "Judicial Committee" says, does, acts or thinks? Their power is a complete FARCE and ILLUSION. They have as much legal power and authority as a P.T.A. meeting.
They only have power when you GIVE them power, i.e. by playing their games and even bothering to show up and/or return their calls. I would love to see a mass movement towards "disfellowshipping in absentia" caused simply by the refusal of those being called before these banana "courts" to not even bother showing up.
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hambeak
Assuming you want to remain a member in good standing, all you have to do is show true repentance. Question: What if you have discovered some discrepancies with wt dogma? You are then apostate. What if you smoke? Quit. What if you're pregnant? Disfellowshipped.
There are a variety of reasons for being in the inquisition. Your notes for preparation are useless. Read Crisis of Conscience by Ray Franz. He was a member of the Governing Body for god sake and look what they did to him.
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garybuss
I've never been an elder or been to a judicial trial sponsored by the Jehovah's Witnesses. My biggest fear being an elder and bullying people on purpose and forcing families to shun members would be that one of these days somebody's gonna prepare for the judicial meeting by loading up a shotgun.
Those elders sit in a room and the victim walks in to face them through the only door. It'd be like shooting fish in a barrel. I hope none of my relatives are stupid enough to put themselves in harm's way like that for no good reason.
The Witness group's just about making life miserable and pissing people off. The irony is they don't seem to know they're bad. I didn't know I was bad when I was a Witness. -
jgnat
Inkster: but in the religious and biblical view it is indeed a court. Read the Society's literature on this subject. IT IS A COURT such that you can "appeal" their decision.
Huh. So the society calls it a "court". And those who fall victim to it's judgement face eternal death. I believe the first as much as I believe the second. So what if they perceive themselves as genuine judges? The only power they have is what people give them.
NOW I WOULD BELIEVE that any man who has sat on a Judicial Committee WILL face the ultimate Judgement seat. And be held to account.
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OnTheWayOut
they need not accomodate you at this meeting.
So what. I am with you, Marvin. Demand your rights anyway. It will delay them, force them to call "Mother" for advice on how to handle you. If you explain why you need a second person there to verify your notes (the word of 2 or more), they will refuse, but it sets a precedent that you don't intend to just assume that the JC has your best interests in mind.
Those that wonder, Why bother, just don't show up?- there are many differing circumstances here. Some want to keep contact with family. Maybe the only way to avoid DF in absentia is to make reasonable demands that cause a delay, then show up, but try to avoid the DF still. Yeah, you could pretend repentance, but these guys do what they want anyway, you need to prepare in a legalistic way.