by Marvin Shilmer 157 Replies latest jw friends
Cindy,
Isn't it amazing that the Almighty Creator who is able to read hearts and control kings like water through his fingers cannot get his janitors to make the right decisions by giving them his most Holy power? It's amazing that Satan, who is just a lowly angel, can out maneuver Jehovah by misleading the stars in his son's right hand. Just amazing. And you gave up Santa and the Easter bunny?
What a load of crap.
Been there and pretended that.
W.Once
Cindy,
Could they disfellowship you by accident even when you really are repentent and have changed? Yep. they make mistakes. But it only takes about 6 months to get back, and chalk it up to a lesson learned.
I have known decent people who have killed themselves due to the emotional trauma of being shunned by their own families and life-long friends. If only these people had listened to your advice and realized that they had the privilede of learning a valuable 'lesson' at the hands of window cleaners in Rayon shirts who view themselves as God's judicial spokesmen. What a bunch of feeble losers they were not to realize just how grateful they should be to learn such valuable lessons at the WTS pain and heartache school. They would probably have stained your New World with silly things like human feelings anyway, so perhaps they are better off dead.
By the way, where does this 'six' months to 'get back' come from? Elders are asked to wait at least a year before considering someone for reinstatement. If they wish to reinstate before this they must write to the Branch in explanation of their unusual action.
HS
I have known decent people who have killed themselves due to the emotional trauma of being shunned by their own families and life-long friends.
Anyone who kills themself over being df'd has serious mental problems.
Well, anyone who kills themself for any reason obviously has some major screwed up brain matter.
Side point a little off topic: My grandmother committed suicide. And I pretty much have no affection for her at all. Suicide is selfish. My mother and aunt have never been the same. Who would do that to their own children? I can only forgive her remembering she was nutts.
Cindy,
Side point a little off topic: My grandmother committed suicide. And I pretty much have no affection for her at all. Suicide is selfish. My mother and aunt have never been the same. Who would do that to their own children? I can only forgive her remembering she was nutts.
Yes, I can see that love, empathy, and non-judgmentalism are still a very low priority among the Jehovah's Witnesses.
You ask 'who would do that to their own children'. The day that you develop the insight needed to understand your grandmothers actions is the day that you might begin to view yourself as 'Christian'.
HS
cindylouhou said:
Suicide is selfish
Escaping deep depression is selfish. Perhaps, but it is an indication that the person needs help, not isolation.
Anyone who kills themself over being df'd has serious mental problems.
Yes, Cindy, we are trying to establish a way to avoid the DF so that we can save lives.
Isn't it kind of us to help people to avoid committing suicide?
We welcome your continued posts, Cindy. Don't let us bully you, but understand that some of us are bitter because we are innocent victims of power-hungry men.
You say you only forgive Grandma by remembering that she was nutts, and you also say that you have no affection for her. Please tell us whether she was a witness or not, circumstances. Also please tell us about yourself, then perhaps we can welcome you properly without slinging mud at you, sorry, but we have that tendency (us bitter ones).
OnTheWayOut,
I am not sure if you were including my comments in your 'bullying' remarks, but just for the record, I have no bitterness towards JW's - why should I have? They are trapped in a system that controls them and subsequently demeans them in the process - we have all been there, that is why we understand. My comments to Cindy are not 'mudslinging', but highlight a gross deficiency in her emotional world-view, one that often sets JW's apart from their peers and one which many of us have suffered from in the past.
If you are trying to 'love' someone from a high control religion, the professionals have never found this to be the most effective method. It also flirts with the same level of cunning dishonesty that 'loved' us into being JW's in the first place. Honesty imho is by far the better course.
By the time an active JW has posted to this Board, they have been reading this Board and must be entertaining doubts at some level to even click on the links leading here. They have also gone through the process of subscribing. This, especially given the WTS attempts to demonize the internet, and especially 'apostate' sites speaks volumes.
HS
Shilmer writes,
Recent court rulings in California have demonstrated serious cracks in the WTS’ long held position that its records have safe harbor in ecclesiastical privilege and freedom of religion. As usual, the Devil is in the details. The last thing the WTS wants to see before their judicial committees is defendants asking hard and legitimate questions. The WTS knows how precarious is its perch atop laws of the land. It knows that how elders answer such questions can have serious repercussions in the minds of legislatures.
These rulings have much to do with the child abuse issue. These same rulings may not necessarily work in other situations where the Elders want to meet with a person who, for example, has been inactive, and known to not be in harmony with the organization. Shilmer is making a serious leap that could mislead people on this board into thinking that the case law decisions made in the child abuse cases will now be applicable in other kinds of cases in the JW system.
Before taking any action or employing any of Shilmer's recommendations, consult with an attorney in your jurisdiction. Have your attorney review the California rulings, and make sure what case law or statute applies in your situation. Follow the recommendations of your attorney who is licensed to practice law in your area.
But as critical as these issue may be to some (many or few), it is still amazing to observe how adults here react to the subject and recommendations accordingly.
It is fine if you want to recommend intimidating the Elders if that trips your trigger. Others just simply exhibit some balls, and don't even bother with the Elders and their silly little Judicial Committee Court. There is nothing to be gained unless it is your intent to sue to gain financially. There is certainly no hope of staying in the organization and continue fellowship. It is intellectually dishonest to pretned to want to work with the Elders when one does not really want to remain in the organizarion, all for the purpose of intimidating and then suing.
Finally, making cockeyed recommendations about calling the police serves no purpose at all unless a crime were committed. If you want to engages in intimidation, then follow recommendations that make sense and that will have meaningful impact. Otherwise all of this is an exercise in a lot of hot air.
Yes, it is all simply amazing,
Jim Whitney
hillary_step,
No offense intended. I am using sarcasm, as some people obviously don't know what they are speaking about, or where they wound up posting their thoughts. I hope to further engage those people in conversation with sarcasm. I figure that they won't even catch on to that fact even if I type this post that plainly states it. We can save this victim of [the organization].
I actually have no bitterness toward the individuals, but I do have it toward the organization.
As far as honesty goes, I am for it, but sarcasm is a unique form of honesty. My opinion only.
I've had legitimate causes for complaint against some JWs, such as having several thousand dollars stolen from me by a MS. No matter how hard I pushed, I could not get the elders to even listen to my complaint or look at my proof, let alone go to the lengths of investigating or forming a JC. Because of that I've always assumed the purpose of a JC is to get someone they don't want around out. I assume the decision is to DF long before the JC even takes place. In the cult there is one set of rules for those who suck the elders asses, and another for those who don't.
If you're preparing for a JC with the goal of not getting DF'd, be prepared to suck the elders asses, and use a lot of tongue. If you're going to a JC with the goal of 'making a point', don't waste your time. You will be DF'd, and they won't give a f*ck for whatever 'points' you make. You're better off spending your time and energy doing just about anything else.
Regarding going to a JC armed with a shotgun, I wouldn't bother. I've never met an elder whose life is worth the price of a single moment of my freedom.
W
Jim W,
How does it feel to be so wrong?
The Napa Valley ruling at issue here was not because of the cause of the case (i.e., child abuse). The Napa Valley ruling stemmed from the nature of judicial hearings as directed by the WTS. Apparently you have either not read the whole ruling, or else failed to understand what the court stated.
From Charissa et al Vs Watchtower Bible and Tract Society:
“{The WTS} objects to the production of a number of documents requested by plaintiff on the ground they are protected by the penitential communication privilege contained in Evidence Code section 1032. This court finds that the privilege does not apply to communications between the alleged abusers and the Judicial Committee. The evidence presented by both sides establishes that communications with the Judicial Committee do not fall within the scope of the privilege. First, it is clear that the Judicial Committee’s purpose is to investigate sins for which disfellowship is a potential penalty…. Second, the privilege does not apply because the Judicial Committee was under no obligation to keep the communications private. In fact, the evidence establishes that the Judicial Committee was required to communicate information it obtained regarding potential cases of child molestation to the Watchtower Society headquarters.”
The two applicable items are, 1) the judicial committee is investigatory by its nature and 2) the WTS requirement for judicial committees to share its communications with the WTS.
Please note, Jim W, that when a congregation judicial committee disfellowships an individual both items above apply. At this point if you fail to understand the potential for this ruling (which held up on appeal) then I suppose I’ll have to get my crayons out to draw a picture.
It is not a mistake to consult with an attorney prior to engaging a judicial committee hearing. But why on earth you deem it advisable in relation to recommendations I have offered is unknown, and you have not given any reason for this, either. What about my recommendations could possibly place an individual in legal jeopardy to warrant expending fees to an attorney for consultation? Please explain yourself.
I see no reason to respond to any of your other whining.
Any questions?
Marvin Shilmer, who has balls sufficient to say what he thinks and sufficient education to think before he speaks
