Actually most other religions call it grace...............a far nicer sounding word!
The WT always want to make it sound that the R&F dont deserve anything and that how most feel
WHAT THE HELL IS THE POINT......???????
by Terry 62 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Sad emo
1.UNDESERVED kindness
If it was said that God is kind (as in - he sends the rain on good and bad people alike for example), but then he does something over and above that, yes that's undeserved - you've done NOTHING to earn it, he doesn't HAVE to give it, he chooses to do so - not throw it at you or force you to accept it. I don't see the conflict, he's just offering something that he's under no obligation to.
How's that saying go - it's harder to receive than to give.
2. ARMAGEDDON
Could it be that God was speaking of spiritual death for Adam and Eve? Could it be that he never created us to have neverending life in a physical body? Were we meant to just be transferred to a spiritual existence at the end of our physical lifespan - like Enoch who 'was no more because God took him'? Could it be that because man has suffered spiritual death that God can 'take' very few into that spiritual existence? Could it be that Armageddon is just the result of a natural progression of breakdown of 'civilisation' and has nothing/little to do with a battle between good and evil.
3.RANSOM SACRIFICE
Nah - I don't understand this bit either - but I'm happy to accept the undeserved kindness!
"I've given up on doing this alone now
Cause I failed, and I'm ready to be shown how
You've told me the way, and I'm trying to get there
And this life sentence that I'm serving
I admit that I'm every bit deserving
But the beauty of grace is that it makes life not fair"Relient K
peace
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Rabbit
WHAT THE HELL is the point......?
1.UNDESERVED kindness
Ask yourself why you don't DESERVE kindness. If God says you don't DESERVE something and he gives it to you anyway...who is conflicted here?? Who is breaking their own moral code? Who is violating what justice is all about? In short, it makes no frickin' sense! It would be like pardoning a criminal just to be nice. "Okay Muggsie, you can go now. We know you murdered a cop, but; we're giving you a break because...umm...well, we're just very nice!"
2. ARMAGEDDON
God didn't kill Adam and Eve even though he promised he would. He let them breed, for heaven's sakes!
That's pretty much the way I see it, too, Terry. But, I have one suggestion that will make the reading more...interesting:
In the tradition of Edward G. Robinson:
WHAT THE HELL is the point......? See-e-e...?
1.UNDESERVED kindness
Ask yourself why you don't DESERVE kindness. If God says you don't DESERVE something and he gives it to you anyway...who is conflicted here?? See-e-e...? Who is breaking their own moral code? See-e-e...? Who is violating what justice is all about? See-e-e...? In short, it makes no frickin' sense! See-e-e...? It would be like pardoning a criminal just to be nice. See-e-e...? "Okay Muggsie, you can go now. We know you murdered a cop, but; we're giving you a break because...umm...well, we're just very nice!" See-e-e...?
2. ARMAGEDDON
God didn't kill Adam and Eve even though he promised he would. He let them breed, for heaven's sakes! See-e-e...?
Much better...See-e-e...?
Rabbit
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hambeak
Sort of paradoxical don't ya think? They are good at distorting things Fear = Control that's just my opinion
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FlyingHighNow
UNDESERVED kindness
My church doesn't believe the Bible is all inspired. They know men put things in it to control and oppress other people. If it stinks and doesn't make sense, then you know God did not inspire it. Advocates of slavery in the early US history claimed the Bible said enslaving Africans was A-Okay...that God was behind the whole concept. We all know that's bull.
I have always felt rather sorry for Jesus and God because of the horrors that are claimed to be done in their names.
One concept of the Bible I know is true. God is love. Love is long suffering and kind. Love never fails. Any things other than this, you know, where God kills thousands of people or offs some guy for touching the Ark of the Covenent to steady it, well you know people made that crap up. It's like raising your voice and grimacing to scare little kids so they'll behave. It's easier to scare them than to physically force them to do what you want.
Fear works like a charm.
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Anitar
Hi Terry,
It took me a while to understand your point, but I think I have it now. Christianity is just one among hundreds of religions, yet over time has come out to dominate most others. Why is that? Is it a fulfillment of the promise that Jesus made regarding his people spreading all over the earth? Perhaps.
I think Christianity has done alot of good and alot of bad throughout history, Jehovah's Witnesses included. The problem with orthodox Christianity is that it's too patriarchal. Women are treated like property, the earth is seen as a resource to be exploited, animals are seen as being inferior and must be subdued, and everyone else must be converted to Christianity.
Let me put it this way. When the Europeans first came to the Americas, the Native Americans (or at least the Iroquois) were unlike anything they had ever seen before. They had no bible, no Christ, no monarchy. Everything about their culture was centered on giving back to the earth, which was their mother. All the animals were their brothers, and they knew nothing of the concept of material wealth. In fact, the Europeans remarked that the first thing they had to teach them was greed. The idea of money as a source of power, that in order for someone to win, someone else would have to lose. They were so confused by the Europeans. The idea of owning land with a peice of paper was crazy. You don't own the land, you are a part of the land. To try to possess it would be like trying to own the oxygen in the air. Remember when Manhattan was bought for a handful of beans? Not to mention the settlers obsession with strange peices of yellow rock called "gold."
There is an old Native American belief called the Seven Generation Rule. Basically it means asking yourself when you have to make an important decision, what would your ancestors have done seven generations ago, and how your decision will affect your decedents seven generations from now. They used this principle whenever they had to decide to go to war, or to move the tribe, or break bread with the Europeans. It's hard to explain in words what they believed, but suffice it to say that it might be superior to our modern way of life.
Think about the JW's of the early 1900's or 1960's or anytime for that matter. If they bothered to consider how their current beliefs would affect their children, or the discarded doctrines of generations past, would they realize the magnitude of their sins? Probably not. The idea that everything you believe is a lie and the organization you stood for is guilty of the worst crimes imaginable is enough to drive anyone crazy.
To sum up, I don't think it's God's or the bible's fault for how much Christianity has gotten screwed up, but rather man's fault. Specifically, greedy white men.
Anitar
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JamesThomas
What is a "point"? A point is a mentally constructed conclusion, a finite finality that gives a sense of cohesion to a specific grouping of mental constructs in question. It's a snake eating it's own tale.
This works on a practical day to day level. The point of adding baking soda to my banana bread is that I want a high, airy light bread, not a dense flat bread. The point is clear and it works. There are countless instances of points being made and used successfully all day. This is how it is in the phenomenal world of space and time, and seeming finite separate things moving from a point A, to a point B.
All is well and good with this system until we attempt to step out of the finite, particle, phenomenal, thought world -- into the foundational or Wave reality. The Bible is suppose to be about the ultimate Truth, our Source, the Wave that gives birth to all particles of people places and things. The Bible doesn't do this though. It can't. It instead offers up a grand fictitious drama of particles in the form of isolated characters and events. It's not at all what it presents itself to be. It's a lie. One of the biggest lies ever told. It's a particle pretending to be a wave. A charade.
Perhaps, the Bible is a point unto itself. A mentally constructed conclusion, a finite finality that gives a sense of cohesion to those hypnotized into believing it.
Ultimately, in regards our true Source, there is no point, no finality. There is no beginning, and there is no end. It is not a thing. It can not be circumscribed or understood by the limited finite mind because It's too close, too vast, to wondrous. It is not something real, rather it is Reality. It is not an entity which is alive, it is Life. It is what everything and everyone truly IS; and because of this it is always present here and now, and can be realized.
Be still, and know...
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Leolaia
Ask yourself why you don't DESERVE kindness. If God says you don't DESERVE something and he gives it to you anyway...who is conflicted here?? Who is breaking their own moral code? Who is violating what justice is all about? In short, it makes no frickin' sense! It would be like pardoning a criminal just to be nice. "Okay Muggsie, you can go now. We know you murdered a cop, but; we're giving you a break because...umm...well, we're just very nice!"
The Watchtower concept of "undeserved kindness", with emphasis on the "undeserved", is a distortion of the NT concept of grace. The kindness is not undeserved in the sense that those who receive it don't really deserve it; it is undeserved in the sense that it is freely given to everyone with no preconditions of merit or deservedness; it is not a kindness that is earned. It is given without respect to such matters.
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unique1
I never really gave it that much thought. Excellent points.
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Woodsman
If God had wiped out Adam and Eve, it would be admitting that Satan was right, humans wouldn't choose to serve God. I'm just saying....
So what do you call the flood? If you believe in the "Issue of Universal Sovereignty" then it sounds to me it was a done deal at the flood. Unless you say that Satan succeeded in effin up the world before God was ready so God did a do over at the flood. Yeah Right.