Do the FDS use Spiritism to contact the '24 Elders' and the 144000?

Gill

The Watchtower has always, in its publications, talks etc warned against contact with Spirit creatures!

JWs are notoriously terrified of anything that might even remotely be to do with Spiritism.

However, I find it totally bizarre that they can accept 'Spirit guidance from the 24 Elders' as an explanation to how the Holy Spirit guides the FDS!

I would, in simple terms call this a form of Spiritism. They look to Spirit enlightenment to 'enlighten them'.

So how do the FDS make contact with the 24 Elders and the 144,000 who they claim to be 'guiding' them now!

Even if it is only by mental thought processes, surely that is still spiritism in the book of the Watchtower.

Since Rutherford died (and Clayton Woodworth), I haven't seen anything in the publications that suggests that Knorr, Fred Franz, or others are or thought they were in direct contact with the angels, God or Jesus in the spiritistic fashion. They dance around this issue. I have asked GB members how and the answers they gave were that they read the Bible, prayed for understanding, and as a group came to the best conclusion pointing to the Bible account in Acts regarding how the conclusion on circumcision was reached. Never did I have one say that they were in direct contact with the angels or God or Jesus. Individual JWs who claim to be of the anointed may say that they, the individual, have direct contact, but the WTS has put in print that the WTS does not support this belief. The WTS reminds these individuals that God only deals with the FDS and more specifically the GB, not them as individuals.

Blondie

Jourles

I have asked GB members how and the answers they gave were that they read the Bible, prayed for understanding, and as a group came to the best conclusion pointing to the Bible account in Acts regarding how the conclusion on circumcision was reached.

That's strange. I do not remember reading about a 2/3's vote on the circumcision issue.

blondie

Well, Jourles, if a person knows that 2/3 vote thing, they didn't learn it from reading any WT publications...they must be an "apostate." I wonder if it was a 2/3 vote in Acts and Peter was fibbing. I figured they learned it same way I did by reading the Bible and that any conclusion the GB came to had to be a "best guess." I wasn't much of a asskisser even when I was a JW.

Blondie

Clam

If they were (I dont think they are), then fhe FDS probably thinks it's ok for them to be involved in this anyway. After all 1 Corinthians 12.10, says 'discern the spirits.' Its the R and F who are too daft to tell the difference between good and evil spirits.

compound complex

Dear Gill,

I do not have quotations and references at hand, but at first glance at your topic title I thought of the following. Some accusations are alleged, some proved:

1) automatic handwriting

2) Rutherford's saying that dear Br. Russell, beyond the veil, is directing the Society, or words to that effect.

3) Clayton Woodworth's admission to being under demon possession yet acting as editor of CONSOLATION some 20 years and concocting medical and other bizarre tenets that are still harming to this day.

4) occultic connections

5) Johannes Greber's in and out of "favor" with the Society.

6) "Satanic" images

7) how JFR came upon name "Jehovah's Witnesses"

8) JFR's claim that Holy Spirit is no longer directing the work

Whether all or none of the above are supported by sufficient evidence, yet vats of ink have been spilt on these claims. Your friendly little neighborhood church is, I would venture to guess, a spiritual "virgin" compared to the WT. The Society, IMHO, is under some sort of influence HOWEVER much she protests otherwise. JFR got his spirits from above and a bottle.

Hating demonism with the white-hot intensity of a thousand suns,

Compound-Complex

Nathan Natas

I was surprised that the concept of the "24 elders" was one I couldn't immediately call to mind. Maybe it's because I have never claimed to be of the anointed, or maybe it is because I am not particularly interested in scriptural matters.

So I looked it up. Here is a snippet from the Insight book, volume 2, page 551:

Who are the "twenty-four elders" on heavenly thrones?

In the book of Revelation, the term pre·sby´te·roi occurs 12 times and is applied to spirit creatures. Their surroundings, dress, and actions give a clue as to their identity.

The apostle John had a vision of Jehovah’s throne in heaven, surrounded by 24 lesser thrones upon which were seated 24 elders dressed in white outer garments and having golden crowns upon their heads. (Re 4:1-4) As the vision continued, John saw the 24 elders not only repeatedly falling down in worship before Jehovah’s throne but also taking part in the various features of the vision as it progressed. (Re 4:9-11; 5:4-14; 7:9-17; 14:3; 19:4) Especially were they observed joining in the Kingdom proclamation to the effect that Jehovah had taken up his great power and had begun to rule as king.—Re 11:15-18.

"My baloney has a first name, it's WTB&TS..."

daystar

Interestingly, and I hate to feed into any conspiracy theories, but..., there is among occult orders a group of entities often called the Secret Chiefs.

The Secret Chiefs are said to be transcendent cosmic authorities responsible for the operation and moral calibre of the cosmos, or for overseeing the operations of an esoteric organization that manifests outwardly in the form of a magical order or lodge system. Their names and descriptions have varied through time, dependent upon those who reflect their experience of contact with them.
One early and influential source on these august entities is Karl von Eckhartshausen, whose The Cloud Upon The Sanctuary, published in 1795, explained in some detail their character and motivations. Several 19th and 20th century occultists claimed to belong to or to have contacted these Secret Chiefs and made these communications known to others, including H.P. Blavatsky (who called them the "Tibetan Masters"), Dion Fortune (who called them the "esoteric order"), Max Heindel (who called them the "Elder Brothers").

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_Chiefs

But, this is also not explicitly an occult concept and doesn't mean the GB had to have used spiritistic means of contacting entities any more uncommon than prayer, which is also a basic "spiritistic" practice. (Sorry, hard to write that without confusing it with "Spiritualism")

In other words, fundamentally, if you pray, you practice spiritism.

Will Power

quote: Especially were they observed joining in the Kingdom proclamation to the effect that Jehovah had taken up his great power and had begun to rule as king.—Re 11:15-18. had begun to rule as king? in 1914? 1918? this newest resurrections of the 24 - annointed? is Jesus one of the 144,000 annointed? or is he the king? and angel as king? boy what a great story! cause that's all it is!

truthsetsonefree

As some have already mentioned, they seem to believe that when they all come together, God's spirit moves them to make the decision that God/Christ and now the 24 elders wants them to make. Elders believe the same thing. No specifics can be given on how they know. Allegedly it is supposed to happen when "under prayer" and Scripture texts are read and used to arrive at a conclusion. But of course separating that from WT interpretation is pretty hard to do.

tsof

Do the FDS use Spiritism to contact the '24 Elders' and the 144000?

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