I think the word transfer is about what happened with the body . Apparently God likes to keep the body of the faithful true . The part about moses clearly says he dies but no body is found .They did not have to suffer with disease or old age .IMO
Did any Man Asend to Heaven Before Jesus?
by gumby 85 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Leolaia
Hi acadian....Here are some comments of mine about the anonymous essay:
This has been the perplexing problem to so many. He did not ascend to the throne of God, because Jesus said so!
There is nothing in the text about Elijah going to the "throne of God" per se.
Also, notice in 2 Kings 3 and 5 that the sons of the prophets knew Elijah would be taken away by God in advance . They believed that Elijah was going to be taken to another location, which is why they were fearful that the Spirit of God might have dropped him "upon some mountain, or into some valley" (2 Kings 2:16).
There is nothing in those chapters to indicate any pre-knowledge of Elijah's departure by the prophets from Jericho. They had just watched the ascension and were in a state of disbelief, presuming that Elijah would not permanently go to heaven. However Elisha knew that Elijah was not coming back and would not be found "upon some mountain or in some valley"; he was now the successor of Elijah and had his prophetic spirit. So he told them not to go look for Elijah. But the other prophets kept insisting so Elisha decided to let them see their own folly. They went looking for him and could not find him anywhere. Hence, Elisha's caustic response: "Didn't I tell you not to go?" (v. 18).
The new king of Israel was another son of Ahab, Jehoram, or Joram as he is sometimes called. The beginning of his reign marked the year of his removal of Elijah (2 Kings 1:18 and 3:1).
The text does not say that the departure of Elijah occurred at the accession of Jehoram of Israel. The notice in 1:17 forms the conclusion to the story of Ahaziah whereas the story of Elijah's ascension occurs in a separate story that begins in 2:1. There is no indication of how much time has elapsed between the two stories; all we know is that Elijah was taken to heaven sometime during the reign of Jehoram of Israel. The accession of Jehoram of Israel is narrated again in 3:1, but this does not imply that the time intervening between 1:17 and 3:1 occurred in the same year, no more than it implies that Jehoram became king twice. Rather, the accession is reprised in this verse because it begins a brand-new story centered on Jehoram and his wars with Moab (3:1-27), and thus it begins the story of Jehoram from the start of his reign.
In the fifth year of Joram king of Israel, the son of the king of Judah began to reign along with his father in Judah (2 Kings 8:16). His name also was Jehoram. The first thing he did to establish his kingdom rule was to put his relatives to the sword lest they should claim the throne from him (2 Chronicles 21:4). For nearly six years he followed the ways of the nations about him and did evil in the sight of God. Almost ten years had now expired since Elijah was taken from the people. After this wicked rule by the Jewish king, God chose Elijah to write a letter and have it sent to the king! The contents of the letter are found in 2 Chronicles 21:12-15. From the wording of this letter, it is clear that Elijah wrote it after these events had occurred, for he speaks of them as past events, and of the diseases as future, Two years after the king became diseased the king died, having reigned only eight short years (2 Chronicles 21:18-20). This proves that the letter was written about ten years after Elijah had been taken
Actually, this oversimplifies the knotty chronological problem posed by the source texts. There have been many attempts at harmonization, but imho none are fully successful. The key thing to realize is that 2 Chronicles construes the accession of Jehoram of Judah as king at an entirely different time than 2 Kings. In 2 Chronicles 21:1, we are told that Jehoram of Judah ascended the throne upon the death of his father Jehoshaphat. However, in 2 Kings we have two different reckonings of the accession of Jehoram of Judah -- neither of which is identical to the one in 2 Chronicles. On the one hand, we are told that that Jehoram of Judah became king two years before the death of Jehoshaphat. In 2 Kings 3:1, we are told that Jehoram of Israel (not to be confused with Jehoram of Judah!) became king in the 18th year of Jehoshaphat of Judah, and then Jehoram of Judah became king five years later (8:16), i.e. in the 23rd year of Jehoshaphat whereas Jehoshaphat reigned for a total of 25 years (Kings 22:42). Moreover, we know from 2 Kings 1:17 that Jehoram of Judah became king nine years before the death of Jehoshaphat, for Jehoram of Israel succeeded Ahaziah in the second year of Jehoram of Judah and this same event occurred in the 18th year of Jehoshaphat, i.e. Jehoram of Judah became king in the 16th year of Jehoshaphat of Judah and the first year of Jehoram of Israel. This suggests that Jehoram's reign as co-regent overlapped considerably with that of his father, and yet 2 Chronicles knows nothing about this overlap and portrays the reign as starting only after the death of Jehoshaphat. The late post-exilic author of 2 Chronicles dates the story about the Elijah letter to a time after the death of Jehoshaphat tho the older tradition in the Deuteronomistic History presumed that Jehoram had been king for many years before Jehoshaphat's demise. There are many other examples in 2 Chronicles of rewritten history that differs considerably from what is presented in 2 Kings, and it should not be forgotten that the whole Elijah cycle from 1-2 Kings is absent in 2 Chronicles while the letter that the Chronicler supplies in its place is unknown to the author of 2 Kings. If the Chronicler was indeed revising 2 Kings, it seems plausible that he rejected the miracle and apotheosis stories as legendary (or at least problematic) and substitued them with a separate story about Elijah that in fact is at variance with them.
The Bible does not reveal how much longer Elijah lived after writing the letter, but it does say that it is appointed for all men to die once (Romans 5:12,14, 1 Corinthians 15:20-23, Hebrews 9:27).
The "Bible" is not a single book and does not present a single point of view. A general statement in the NT that "it is appointed for all men to die once" does not militate against specific exceptions, which are not in view. This is a case of pitting one scripture against another.
BTW, the interpretation that Elijah was indeed carried to heaven and thus did not see death was the predominant one in the Second Temple period, and is presumed in some parts of the NT which refer to expectation of Elijah's return and which refer to Elijah's appearance during the Transfiguration (cf. Matthew 16:14, 17:3-4, 10-11, 27:47, Mark 6:15, 8:28, 9:11-12, 15:35-36, Luke 9:19, 30-33, John 1:21, Revelation 11:6). I have already referred to Malachi 4:5. There is also the Animal Apocalypse from the early second century BC, which states that Elijah was saved from his enemies by bringing him up into heaven to dwell with Enoch (1 Enoch 89:52; cf. 87:3 on the ascension of Enoch to heaven), who would both descend to the earth just before Judgment Day (1 Enoch 90:31, cf. Revelation 11:3-6, which refers to Elijah and Moses, while other sources such as the Apocalypse of Elijah refer to the two witnesses as Enoch and Elijah). Similarly, Sirach (c. 180 BC) states that Elijah "arose like a fire ... taken up in the whirlwind of fire, in a chariot with fiery horses" so that he would return "to allay God's wrath before the fury breaks [i.e. Judgment Day], to turn the hearts of fathers towards their children, and to restore the tribes of Jacob" (48:1, 9-10). The Apocryphon of Elijah in the Dead Sea Scrolls (first century BC), tho damaged, also seems to refer to the return of Elijah "at the end" (4Q382, Fr. 31). See also Josephus, from the first century AD: "Elijah disappeared (aphanisthé) from among men," i.e. he no longer lived "among men" (Antiquities 9.2.2), which does not reflect an interpretation that Elijah was merely lifted to some other place in Israel. The first century AD Vitae Prophetarum also ends Elijah's career with his ascension in the chariot of fire (21:14-15). 4 Ezra (from c. AD 100) also states that those living at the end of the end (when the final trumpet sounds, 6:23) "shall see the men who were taken up, who from their birth have not tasted death, and the heart of man's inhabitants shall be changed and converted to a different spirit," this can only be a reference to Enoch and Elijah, and the reference to hearts being changed parallels the statement in Sirach 48:9-10 about Elijah. The Hebrew Mishnah (from c. AD 200) similarly prophesy Elijah's return, declaring that he will settle all disputes and play a role in resurrecting the dead (Eduyyot 8:7, Sotah 9:15). Finally, the idea that Enoch and Elijah were the only two people to ever escape death and who will return at the End is reported among the church fathers (cf. Irenaeus, Adversus Haereses 5.5.1, Hippolytus, De Antichristo, 47). In contrast to all this, I know of not a single reference to Elijah's journey up the whirlwind as a temporary sojourn to some other place in the land.
And regarding Enoch:
"By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death ; and was not found, because God had translated him:" Does the phrase that says Enoch "should not see death" mean Enoch never died? Hebrews 11:13, "These all died [including Enoch] in faith." But not only that, verse 13 goes on to say that they did not receive the promises. One of the promises was a heavenly country (verse 16). If Enoch were in heaven, wouldn't he have received that promise? ... we must conclude that Enoch died the first death. To believe Enoch did not die is to deny the plain word of many other scriptures as well. For example, Romans 5:12, "...so death passed upon all men , for that all have sinned" and Romans 5:14, "...death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned."
This is a noticably weak attempt to side step the explicit statement in Hebrews 11:5. Again, this argument pits general statements (which do not necessarily have the specific instance in mind), many from completely different writings, against the specific one regarding Enoch. It is perfectly natural for a writer to give a list of personages and then end it with a general statement may not recall the specific instance of one of them mentioned early on, especially since the general statement fits everyone else. Rather, it is "to deny the plain word" of Hebrews 11:5 to claim that Enoch is conceptualized as dying since the verse explicitly says otherwise: "By faith Enoch was translated so that he should not see death and he was not found because God had taken him". He either was translated so that he should not die, or he was not. The verse says that he was translated, implying that he did not experience death. Note also that v. 13 says that "all these died in faith before receiving any of the things that had been promised", and yet v. 6 says that God "rewards those who try to find him" directly after mentioning that Enoch was translated so as to not experience death, i.e. implying that he did receive his reward by being translated.
It should also be noted that the list in Hebrews 11 imitates the similar list in Sirach 44-49, which states in the retrospect: "No one has ever been created on earth to equal Enoch, for he was taken up from the earth" (49:14).
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Leolaia
I forgot to comment about this one:
1 Corinthians 15:20-23 says that all die and all shall be resurrected, but Messiah must be first in the order. Enoch could not possibly have preceded him, especially if he were still flesh and blood as it says in verses 49-52.
This is another example of pitting a general statement from one scripture against a specific claim from another. But it is not even relevant. Paul conceives Jesus as the "firstfruits" of the resurrection, but Enoch has nothing to do with the resurrection in the dominant tradition because he never died and thus would not be resurrected. So how would Enoch precede Jesus in the resurrection? Moreover, we do not know of Paul's opinion about the Enoch tradition (the assumption that the anonymous epistle to the Hebrews is Pauline is unwarranted).
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Star Moore
Alcadian..:
I really liked your comments and I, by myself, came to the same conclusion.
You said:
Either way, you go to the same place...dust you are, and to dust you will return....all spirits go back to God not heaven according scripture.
The idea of dying and going to heaven is not a bible teaching, but receiving heaven while still alive is. -
gumby
Star Moore.....I still think you smoke drugs.
The idea of dying and going to heaven is not a bible teaching, but receiving heaven while still alive is.
And just where does the bible say that god lives? Is it not in the heavens? If I remember right....Jesus was caught up in the clouds ascending upward when he left the earth....no?
Leolaia, you ain't a distant relative of Einstein are ya? Your amazing. Can I have your brain when you die....since organ transplants are ok now?
The fact is...at least in my book.....is that nobody has a damn clue where we go when we die because nobodys ever came back to tell anyone, and that includes ghosts cuz all they do is scare the hell outta people cuz their arnry little bastards.
Gumby
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heathen
The idea of dying and going to heaven is not a bible teaching, but receiving heaven while still alive is.
there are scriptures in the new testament that suggest first dying and being resurrected , how about Pauls writing of the seventh trumpet blast and all those dead in union with christ will rise first and then all other believers will be changed ?
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oldflame
is that nobody has a damn clue where we go when we die because nobody's ever came back to tell
Gumby,
If I die before you I promise I will pay you a visit before I ascend
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gumby
Gumby,
If I die before you I promise I will pay you a visit before I ascend
You musta made a typo OldFlame.......cuz yer gonna descend cuz yer too ugly to enter heaven. Jehovah hates ugly bastards.
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Mary
Gumby said: Leolaia, you ain't a distant relative of Einstein are ya? Your amazing. Can I have your brain when you die....since organ transplants are ok now?
Sorry Gumbers, I got dibs on Leolaia's brain.
The fact is...at least in my book.....is that nobody has a damn clue where we go when we die because nobodys ever came back to tell anyone.
Sure they have. People who have had Near Death Experiences tell an amazing story. Dr. Jekyll sent me an email a couple of months ago telling me about the NDE he had years ago when he was still a Witness. He was in a motorcycle accident and was clinically dead. He could see the Fireman working on him trying to resusitate him and went on to have the classical NDE: bright light, intense feeling of love, no thought or concern of this world, seeing relatives (his grandpa) that had already passed on. Like many others would have been revived, he was upset when he came back to his body and was depressed for weeks afterwards. Many people view this as the brain hallucinating, but I believe these people have had a glimpse into the next life.
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acadian
Gumby,
And just where does the bible say that god lives? Is it not in the heavens?
Yes, but what is heaven and where is it?
After they received the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, the apostles spoke of Heaven as something they were experiencing while in their bodies. So, the apostles did follow Jesus afterwards, because Heaven came to them! Once they received the spirit, they did "...follow his steps" (1 Peter 2:21).
John 14:2-3, "In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."
Compare John 14:2-3 with John 14:22-23. The word "mansions" in verse 2 is translated from the same Greek word as "abode" in verse 23! As a matter of fact, these are the only two places in scripture where this Greek word #3438, mone, appears!
John 14:22-23, "Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him."
Jesus was saying that those in whom He would come to dwell in were the mansions in his Father's house. Believers are "God's building" (1 Corinthians 3:9), and "as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house" (1 Peter 2:5). This "spiritual house" is the "mansion, " it is the "place," that Jesus prepared for us in John 14:2-3. (See also Ephesians 2:19-22).
And how will Jesus and the Father come unto us and make their abode with us?
John 14:16, "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;"
And who is the Comforter? Jesus tells us:
John 14:26, "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost,"
The Comforter is the Holy Spirit! It is the Holy Spirit dwelling within us!
Notice also how the apostles wrote that they were "together with Christ in the heavenlies" while in their physical bodies, thus fulfilling this verse as well. Christ did come again, and received them, and Christ was in them, and by Christ being in them, heaven was in them, because that is where Christ is!
2 Corinthians 5:1-2, "For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:"
In verse 1, the "earthly house of this tabernacle" refers to the physical body, in which the spirit is represented as dwelling or sojourning for a time, and from which it is to be liberated at death. When our bodies are dissolved, our spirit will return to "a house not made with hands." This house is not a literal house, but spiritual. In other words, we have a "spirit," and it will be housed with God, who is "eternal in the heavens." This coincides with Ecclesiastes 12:7, "the spirit shall return unto God."
In verse 2, it says we desire to be clothed with this house "which is from heaven." Notice this verse does not says this house is in heaven, but from heaven. God's throne is in heaven. Our "spiritual body" will be clothed by God from heaven, not in Heaven.
Heathen,
there are scriptures in the new testament that suggest first dying and being resurrected
Yes there is,
Romans 6:6-8, "Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:"
Ephesians 4:22-24, "That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness."
Colossians 3:9-10, "Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:"
In other words, when scripture speaks of the dead, it is speaking of those who are dead in trespass and sins:
Ephesians 2:1, "And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;"
Colossians 2:13, "And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;"
You see, people can be dead while they live (1 Timothy 5:6), but faith in Christ can change us so we "are alive from the dead" (Romans 6:13). The whole point of these passages is to explain that, "the body without the spirit is dead" (James 2:26). So, today, we are alive from the dead, because death is swallowed up when we receive the Holy Spirit.
In Matthew 8:22, Jesus associated the physical life with spiritual death, where, in speaking of living people, He said, "Let the dead bury their own dead."
look at Romans 8:10 in this light:
Romans 8:10, "And if Christ be in you, the body is dead [the body of sin, the old man] because of sin; but the Spirit is life [the spiritual body, the new man] because of righteousness."
This verse says if we have Christin us, then we have the Spiritin us, and if we have the Spiritin us, then we have eternal lifein us! This is what Paul meant in Romans 10:6 when he explained that the meaning of the phrase "ascend into heaven" means to "bring Christ down from above." If we have Christ in us, we are inheaven! Therefore, heaven is a present realitynow, and not a future hope. Heaven is within us!
Heaven is a present reality now. Notice these words of Jesus. When speaking of the Kingdom of God in this passage, he explained both where it is and when it is. Notice he spoke of the Kingdom of God in the present tense, and not the future tense.
Luke 17:21, "...for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you."
Matthew 12:28, "...the kingdom of God is come unto you."
Even the apostle John wrote that he was "in the kingdom...of Jesus Christ" (Revelation 1:9) while writing the book of Revelation. Notice he spoke of the kingdom in the present tense, as if it was inside of him.
The reason the Kingdom of God is within us is because God dwells within us! (1 Corinthians 3:16-17; 6:19-20, 2 Corinthians 6:16, Revelation 21:3).
A few more thoughts,
In scripture, eternal life is defined as knowing Christ Jesus while in this physical body! Look at this definition of "life eternal":
John 17:3, "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."
You see, eternal life does not mean we become immortal (to live for ever and ever), it means to know God, and to know His Truth! In fact, the word "immortal" only appears once in the entire King James Bible! (1 Timothy 1:17). Only once!! Incredible, considering we hear the "immortal soul" preached all the time. The term "immortal soul" does not appear anywhere in scripture. The word "immortality" appears three times in scripture, and it is not in reference to any "soul," it is in reference to God, because only God has immortality, not us (1 Timothy 6:15-16).
1 John 5:11-12, "And this is the record, that God hath[passed tense] given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath[present tense] life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have[present tense] eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. "
1 John 3:14, "We know that we have passed [passed tense] from death unto [eternal] life, because we love the brethren..."
Listen to what Christ himself said:
John 5:24-25, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath[present tense] everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed [passed tense] from death unto life. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is [present tense], when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live."
Now, You might ask, "But, doesn't the bible say the body must die in order to receive eternal life?" Well, yes, the body must die first. But, not our physical body!
Romans 8:10, "And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness."
Well, this verse says if Christ is in you, then your "body" is dead. What "body" is this verse talking about? Obviously not your physical body. By "body" is meant the "body of sin," the sinful part of our nature. In other words, our "old man," which is corrupt because of sinful deeds. And once we are "born again" and put on the "new man," then this is when we receive eternal life and when heaven comes to us.
So if you don't have God's spirit you are considered dead to God.
That's why God could say to Adam "in that day you will die" and spiritually Adam did die.Acadian
