by gumby 85 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Another important part of the Johannine background, I think, is the widespread Wisdom rhetorical question "who will ascend to heaven?" in the sense that the will of the gods (or God) is not revealed, Deuteronomy 30:12; Proverbs 30:4; Baruch 3:29, cf. Romans 10:6...
More later maybe...
Well, all bible stuff aside, it's the theory of some of us that we have all descended from over there to incarnate here. Then, we all go back there when the body stops working for whatever reason. It's more or less the same as is claimed for jesus. But, that would make everyone special, like jesus is supposed to have been, wouldn't it. We can't have that. Churches like the catholic would not be needed any more. Everyone would turn hindu(or taoist, pantheist, atheist).
S
I'm with you there Satanus. I'm always intruiged by the following though:
1 Corinthians 15:42 - 49: "...The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven.
But like you say - "bible aside"
What about Elijah?
2 Kings 2:11; Then it came about as they were going along and talking, that behold, there appeared a chariot of fire and horses of fire which seperated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind to heaven.
Gen. 1: 26 ; God said let us make man make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the ..........
Guminquisitive asked: As all faithful witnesses to Jehovah the most high god well know.....Jesus was the first to go to heaven.( John 3:13 ) Does anyone have any idea where Enoch went.....since he never died?
I had an interesting discussion with the Pastor last Sunday who explained to me that they believe "Heaven" is made up of two parts: Paradise and Heaven itself. They believe that those who have died are in Paradise right now, which some view as a sort of "holding area" of Heaven. According to some mainstream Christian faiths: "....both heaven (Paradise) and Hell (Sheol) are “temporary holding places” until the day when Jesus Christ comes back to judge the world based on whether or not they have believed in Him...."
Jewish Mysticism believes there are 'Seven Heavens' and of course Paul had a vision of the 'Third Heaven'. There are other passages in the bible that indicate the dead go somewhere when they die. There's the Transfiguration when Jesus is seen with Moses and Elijah and the illustration of the Rich Man and Lazarus where the favoured go to the "bosom position of Abraham".
Therefore, I think it's entirely feasible that Enoch was 'transferred' to Paradise, not Heaven itself. Hence John 3:13 could be seen as correct when it states that 'no man has ascended into Heaven' itself.
How's that for logic Gum-minister?!!
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Here's Wikipedia's blog on Jewish belief in Heaven:
In order from lowest to highest, the seven Heavens are listed alongside the angels who govern them and any further information:
Don't know about Enoch but I did consult the JW's master and he said, "
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w 05 8/1 p. 9 Highlights From the Book of Second Kings***What
were "the heavens" to which "Elijah went ascending in the windstorm"? These were neither the distant parts of the physical universe nor the spiritual place where God and his angelic sons dwell. (Deuteronomy 4:19; Psalm 11:4; Matthew 6:9; 18:10) "The heavens" to which Elijah ascended were the atmospheric heavens. (Psalm 78:26; Matthew 6:26) Racing through earth’s atmosphere, the fiery chariot evidently transferred Elijah to another part of the earth, where he continued living for a time. Years later, in fact, Elijah wrote a letter to Jehoram, the king of Judah.—2 Chronicles 21:1, 12-15.If you believe this explanation then I have some beachfront property I will sell to you at a very good price.
Yeah, the Society has a similarly weak response to the traditions about Enoch. The argument given by the Society is based on a facile harmonization of 1-2 Kings and 2 Chronicles (which do not agree with each other on many points), which ignores the fact that the whole Elijah cycle from 1-2 Kings is altogether absent in 2 Chronicles and vice versa there is no mention in 1-2 Kings of the letter mentioned in 2 Chronicles. Moreover, 2 Kings does not precisely date the time when Elijah completed his ministry and the episode with Elisha in 3:11-19 is similarly not dated as well; there is no reason to believe that it occurred at King Jehoram's ascension, indeed it was some time later after Ahab died (v. 5). Furthermore, there is no clear indication in 2 Chronicles when Elijah's letter was written. There are thus many other different ways to harmonize the two accounts, if one views them as reconcilable. The letter could have been written before Elijah's departure and delivered later. Or one could note that Jehoram had an 8-year reign in 2 Chronicles 21:20 as opposed to a 12-year reign in 2 Kings 3:1 which explicitly implies a co-regency since he became king in Jehoshaphat's 18th year and 1 Kings 22:42 already claimed that Jehoshaphat reigned for 25 years. Thus one could construe Elijah's departure as during Jehoram's reign but before Jehoshaphat's death. But the main point is this: The narrative itself in 2 Kings 1-2 portrays the elaborate ritual that preceded Elijah's departure as one that "passed the mantle" of the prophetic office from one person to the other (in fact, that's where the expression comes from). The whole point is that Elijah's career was coming to an end and it was time for Elisha to continue in his place. It distorts the narrative to read it as implying that Elijah continued his ministry subsequent to this.
Remember, the Bible is not a single book but an anthology of works from different theological and eschatological standpoints.
....and remember, only the books that seemed to harmonize with each other were chosen to make up the canon. Had the books Leolaia mentioned been included in the canon, we'd be a helluva lot more confused than we are right now on this issue....and every other issue.
Funny why a god who gave man a book to guide his life by, couldn't do so without people not being able to make any sense of it nor find harmonization within it's pages.
Thanks to all who looked into this and commented about it.......but like so many other bible questions, we can all never agree to it's meaning of many scriptures.
*wonders if he'll be able to set up nutsack shop in heaven*
Dear Gumby:
I have a different understanding of this than most.. I think that when Jesus referred to 'ascending to the heavens' ,. he was talking about a higher level of spirituality.. Take this scripture for example:
John 14:23 >>.....If anyone loves me, he will observe my word, and my Father will love him, and we shall come to him and make our abode with him.
The whole chapter of John 14 talks of Jesus sending the holy spirit down after he dies, which happened at Pentecost 33ce. So this would something new, that hadn't happened yet.. So, evidently the spirit of God would have a more profound effect on the person than the spirit had on people before.
John the Baptist had died before Pentecost 33ce and therefore, Jesus could say that John had not ascended to the heavens.
Most think that heaven is the realm in the spirit world, where the angels and God are.. but it is actually IMO, the place with God. Which could be as a spirit or a human.
*wonders if he'll be able to set up nutsack shop in heaven*
Gumby if you lived over here in the UK, your services to nutsack polishing would have been recognised and consequently rewarded, ie you'd at least have received a Royal appointment. Hopefully such a system will also be in place in heaven and I foresee your shop as underlined with the slogan -
GUMBYS
ä - Nutsack polishers to the 144,000
