Maybe you should change the title of the thread to "would you kill indiscriminatly for your country because uncle sam said to?"
That's what I call "black and white"
and the answer to that would be a loud NO from me!
Misty
Who thinks Killing or Dying for your country is a good Idea?
by new boy 79 Replies latest jw friends
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lovelylil
New boy,
This is not a black and white issue. At least not in the world we live in. Someone has to join the military and they do more than just kill or be killed. They are there to protect our country and its borders. Just the fact that we have a military force keeps other armies from invading our country. We cannot just send everyone home and decide not to protect our land anymore. That is a fact of this life.
War is ugly and there is not way around it. Some of us are awaiting a new "heavenly" kingdom when war will be no more. But you have to understand even as Christians we have a right to protect ourselves. And you are trying to make it sound like our military men and women are just going out and killing for no reason. They are not! They are there to stike back when others strike first but also they are the first ones to help in all major disasters too. There is a long list really of what the military does and it is not just kill. They help to protect the American way of life, one that is filled with freedoms and opportunity including religious freedom. If we were under the rule of another government, we may not be allowed to practice Christianity out in the open the way we do. You seem to put our military men/women in the same arena as just plain murderers and that is wrong. Even in the bible killing is sometimes justified and God was called the "God of War" by the Isrealites. He was not a pacifist by any means. And he supported the Isrealites army and as a matter of fact, God is the one who told the Isrealites to gather their their armies and helped them fight and kill! Do you really think the bible is anti-war?
And you are twisting Jesus words in which he was trying to teach a principle. "if you live by the sword, you die by the sword". He was trying to emphasis being peacable with all men for Christians. And many Christians (myself included) would not choose military life because we don't want to be in the position to have to pick up a sword. But even the early Christians had to sometimes rely on protection of armed men so that the crowd of people would not kill them. And they had to be in subjection to the superior authorities which included the Roman empire and Roman Army. So although THEY did not participate in these activities, they had to support those who did by being subject to them. They certainly did not protest against those ones. Also God is the one who allows the governmental rule we have on earth or, there will be total chaos! And this rule includes a protective military.
What I don't agree is when our troops are sent into countries that don't want us there and we are not at war with. But they do not know this will happen to them when they join the military. I have lots of military people in my family. And they all joined to SUPPORT their country and they realized they may be sent to war for this purpose but none of them intend to go into countries not at war with us. The thing is that once you sign up - you have to go where they send you. And this is one point I made with my son who wants to join in the future. You are the property of the military. That being said, they are doing the job they signed up for which includes taking orders from the President and going where he tells them to go and I try to support them while they do their jobs. Just like I support my local police force and fire dept.
And finally, in answer to your question: while killing or dying for your country is never a good idea - sometimes it is necessary. Lilly
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tetrapod.sapien
i still do not agree with the "us and them" mentality.
when i apostasized against the WTS, i also apostasized against the mentality that they preach. they are not the only ones that preach "us and them". our governments, our media, our minds all preach us and them. stop the INSANITY!!!! this is why i do not believe that religion is the cause of peoples problems and struggle in the human race. the root of problems is human nature. stop blaming other people for your own problems! god is not going to come and fix our problems! i don't really care hosw strong your faith is. the earth, and all the things in it need you to help it with peace NOW, not in the future!
if you are an apostate to the WTS, don't just apostasize against thier feeble doctrine! apostasize against everything they stand for that is counterproductive to world peace! their way of seeing the world, that it will be okay by divine intervention in the future, and not NOW!! the world is okay now, so make it that way and stop making excuses!
Someone has to join the military and they do more than just kill or be killed. They are there to protect our country and its borders. Just the fact that we have a military force keeps other armies from invading our country. We cannot just send everyone home and decide not to protect our land anymore. That is a fact of this life.
people keep saying this, but i categorically disagree with this type of thinking. nations, religions, borders, land, home, struggles, suffering, war, us, them, etc. are all things that are ILLUSIONS. even family is an illusion. so you share genetic similarity with some other humans? what's the difference between them and the people you are fighting, genetically? none, really. we all come from the same common ancestors! start acting like it!
i was homeless, by choice, all summer and fall. i rode my bicycle and walked across western canada. at night i slept, laid my head, on land that other people believed was "theirs", whether it was the government, or individuals. and let me tell you, i had some time to reflect, every night, on these concepts of "ours" "theirs" "land" "ownership". homo sapiens think they own land, because an abstraction on a piece of paper says that they do. this is ILLUSION too. and let me tell you, whether you want to believe this or not, even your own life is not yours. it belongs to the cosmos, of which you are NOT sepparate.
you assume that without an army, other people from other countries would invade "your own", and take "your things".
i find it interesting, that i am an atheist, and i am reminding christians of the things that Jesus himself stood for. what happened people? what happened? at what point did you forget that you don't "own" anything, and that peace is NOT something that is coming in the future. it only exists right NOW.
when you argue that armies and defensive/offensive posturing is required as a "fact", you are supporting an illusion, and a lie about the way the world supposedly is. you are being an animal, and not a glorified creation of the cosmos, or god or whatever you want to call it. and your fear of seeing the world as it really is, is contributing to others, including your so-called "enemies", not being able to change.
the only way the world is going to change is if YOU change. and YOU, and YOU, and YOU, and YOU ..............
people sometimes get upset with me when i call THEIR problems illusions. but this is what they are. problems do not exist, only YOUR SUBSCRIPTION TO THEM DOES. if you look at your life right now, in this very moment, there are no problems! this is a simple spiritual and psychological truth. problems only exist in the past and the future, and the past and future only exist in your egoic mind.
so, simply put, change your subscription from animal fear of the future, to human acceptance of the now, and there will be world peace. who cares if your enemies don't get it right now?! if they do not see the light of their own natural history, and why they mindlessly horde and fight and suffer as a result, because they are APES, then at least YOU do, and you make one more person awakening to the only course for humanity on the planet:
PEACE NOW.
don't try. do. trying invloves making excuses as to why you will not be peaceful, and will remain subscribed to babylon/samsara. doing involves PEACE NOW.
i'm done with this thread. thanks newboy, it was good. what you asked about jesus is so true: what country would he kill for? what family? what land? what border? what sack of money? what person? what ideal would he kill for? what thing of this world would he even get violent on behalf of? NONE! NOTHING!
what would he die for? EVERYTHING! ... not just "us" and "ours".
out,
tetra
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daniel-p
I'm not touching this thread with a ten-foot pole. But I will touch it with a few random letters: jwhefgoghojnoawhglojrwng.
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Warlock
I used to, but not anymore.
Put the politicians on the front line and let them have a taste of it. By the way, Osama's not on the front line either.
Warlock
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restrangled
IMHO our country has a real luxury being able to ask this question to begin with. In modern history we have not had our borders threatened by other nations that share them. It is another situation entirely in the Middle east, Europe, etc.
Having been in Israel in the early 80's, it was not about killing or dying but defending borders from immediate neighbors. The question is what wars are worth killing and dying for,..... for your country?
r.
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funkyderek
Jourles:
I would never give my life for my country or any other country for that matter.
I would give it up to save another human being, regardless of race, ethnicity, or religion. Yes, even including a JW(though they have the resurrection hope).
Why on earth would you value the life of a complete stranger above your own? You must have very low self-esteem.
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Forscher
I agree that war is bad
However, I am realistic enough to realise that it is not always avoidable. The Quakers basically believe that it is wrong to go to war. But during the French and Indian war they ran up against the wall of reality when the Indians started making war on them and killing their bretheren and caring off their women at the behest of the French. In the end they decided on a pragmatic view since their pacifist stance didn't protect them and they went to war in their own defense. Since then it has been their stance that they avoid military service unless the US is defending itself like we did in WWII.
Sometimes one does encounter an enemy they didn't attack who just won't leave one alone. That is what happened to us on 9/11. We can argue all day whether the invasion of Iraq was justified or not and get nowhere. The real problem with that war is that the administration, listening to the rhetoric of its critics, converted that invasion into a police action with no clear objective in mind just like happened in Vietnam with the same sad results. That is what happens when one doesn't let the military do its job. As for "invading" Iraq, Bush's action is not without precedent. Anyone ever hear of Grenada or Panama? Or Cuba and the Phillpines, where lies were indeed used as the basis for an invasion? The difference between those actions and the current one is that the US went in to win decisively and completely whereas the mission in Iraq was not so clearly defined and prosecuted. That, unfortunately, is the habit the US has gotten into over the last 57 years with Grenada and Panama being notable exceptions.
Still, we didn't pick the larger war, it was imposed on us. The difference between us and most of the rest of the world is that we have the guts to defend ourselves, even if we've made the one big blunder in the process. Say what you will, but the idiots who think like Neville Chamberlin will lose big time in the long run. I just hope that the current political situation here does not signal a long term triumph for those idiots in the US.
Forscher
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Sailor Ripley
I would never give my life for my country or any other country for that matter.
I would give it up to save another human being, regardless of race, ethnicity, or religion. Yes, even including a JW(though they have the resurrection hope).
I've heard other people say/believe this. One question, what are your criteria for this? How do you decide? Geographically? Okay, does it have to come down to some radical/kook/nut-job to come to your neighbors' houses and kill them before you'll stand up and say, "enough"? What about the next neighborhood, next city, next county, state and finally country?
I'm asking because I don't understand the logic. I keep having flashbacks of 6th grade... the smart kid asking the bully why he doesn't just leave people alone. You'll kill, not because your gov't tells you to but because some stranger tells you to? Why not just say, "I hate those poo-poo heads"?
We can't just "all get along" because they don't want to get along. They want us dead. Simple. I've earned multiple degrees but I guess I'm not smart enough to see why this is so difficult to understand.
Run Rudy Run!
