I was about to say that the problem is with the "in" in reincarnation". In the JW doctrine, for the want of any "inner person" (soul, spirit or whatever), nothing is incarnated or embodied in the first place, and nothing is reincarnated or re-embodied either.
The JW's Concept of The Resurrection, a False Hope?
by VM44 30 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Leolaia
Yeah I was thinking about that too, but I gave the Society the benefit of the doubt since they still claim that an impersonal "spirit" is embodied (not in the sense that it is contained, but that it animates the body), yielding a living "soul". Example:
*** w55 9/1 p. 538 par. 45 Part 1 — What Do the Scriptures Say About "Survival After Death"? ***
Jehovah God is the source of the life-imparting spirit or invisible life-giving active force. Hence when the dead body returns to the earth as it was, that spirit or active force that animated that body returns to its source; it quits operating in that body.
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the dreamer dreaming
when my NON-JW brother first said this to me way back in 1985 I could not grasp what he really meant... hypnosis entrancement had my brain but good..
..around 1986-7 I suddenly awoke to what he had said.... I mentioned it here a few years ago as well... few seemed to take notice... I am glad more are waking to the JW sham.
the only way one can see the JW way as having any validity is to believe that you are like a corporation... many parts coming and going but making up a LEGAL FICTIOUS ENTITY which will be brought back into existance some time in the future should it be shut down now.
when I woke to this I was still a JW and came to realize that even though JWs say they dont believe in souls or spirits or anything surviving death, they implicitly do believe they themselves will pass magically through death and emerge on the other side, much like the startrek transporter which Dr McCoy always worried was Killing the real him on one side and making a clone on the other.
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moshe
The JW's concept of the resurrection is that at some time in the future a duplicate physical body of a person will be created and onto this duplicated body's brain, the person's memories will be impressed.
Thank you VM44 for plainly stating this. That will be hard for Jehovah to do, since He isn't even paying any attention to all the pedophiles being hidden in all the KH's. I would worry about the WT's Jehovah being able to pull of this massive ressurection of dead humans, given His track record in the WT historical timeline of JW events. When Judge Rutherford wasn't able to conjure up the ancient worthies , Kings and Prophets of old to live at Beth Sarim, that was the tip off to everyone but JW's that the Judge's teachings were full of you know what. Nathan Knorr polished them up a little for JW consumption ,but it's still a looney idea.
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AlmostAtheist
JW's are all about appearances. The marked-up Watchtower, meeting for field service, commenting, getting on the assembly. As long as the resurrected you *appeared* to be you, I'm sure they'd be happy.
The only person resurrection doesn't work for is the "self" that's being resurrected. Since they are ordered to shuck self and put on the "new [conformist] personality", it's all good, eh?
Dave
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V
Thanks for biting on that Leolaia. And now I will play the JW's advocate...
Notice these quotes:
*** w05 1/1 p. 30 Beware of Customs That Displease God ***
Their strong faith that unconscious dead ones in God’s memory will one day live again gives true Christians every reason to separate themselves completely from unchristian funeral customs that deny the reality of the resurrection.
*** w98 7/1 p. 13 par. 2 “The Dead Will Be Raised Up” ***
Jehovah keenly anticipates the resurrection—he yearns to see once again departed faithful ones, who are alive in his memory.—Matthew 22:31, 32.
*** w96 10/15 pp. 5-6 Life After Death—How, Where, When? ***
How, then, is life after death possible? It is because God has his own memory of the person who died. Jehovah has the miraculous power and ability to create humans, so it should not be surprising that he in his memory can preserve a record of the life pattern of the individual.
*** vi p. 28 Victory Over Death—Is It Possible for You? ***
The Creator will simply re-create new human fleshly organisms from the earth’s dust and from his perfect memory will recall former life patterns...
So from a JW standpoint the dead are alive in Jehovah's memory. This is the continuity that makes my statement about reincarnation valid.
An example of this is that the "memories" are like computer files able to be archived on a CD. Since the file is not in use by a computer (the "body") the file is "dead". To round this illustration out let's call the operating system and software the "soul." The file is brought to life by loading it onto another computer (resurrection/reincarnation/re-creation).
So there is the continuity of the file, whether it was active or not. Of course there is no reason why the file or personality could not be loaded onto multiple computers at multiple times. This would correlate to cloning. Of course we have to trust in Jehovah's perfect justice for that not to happen. ;)
So by using the JW phrase "alive in Jehovah's memory" we can then argue--to the JW--that they believe in reincarnation, eh?
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Elsewhere
All religions offer false hope.
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V
Also regarding Narkissos' comment:
I was about to say that the problem is with the "in" in reincarnation". In the JW doctrine, for the want of any "inner person" (soul, spirit or whatever), nothing is incarnated or embodied in the first place, and nothing is reincarnated or re-embodied either.
That is not wholly true. There is something put "in" the reincarnation:
*** vi p. 28 Victory Over Death—Is It Possible for You? ***
The Creator will simply re-create new human fleshly organisms from the earth’s dust and from his perfect memory will recall former life patterns, superimposing them upon the new brain circuits, and will infuse each organism with the life-force, or atma.
*** w96 10/15 p. 6 Life After Death—How, Where, When? ***
Resurrection involves a reactivating of the life pattern of the individual, which life pattern God has retained in his memory. According to God’s will for the individual, the person is restored in either a human body or a spirit body; yet he retains his personal identity, having the same personality and memories as when he died.
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sass_my_frass
Ditto.... if it was you who said this here about a year ago, THANK YOU, because I'd never seen it this way before and it was so liberating to think the 'Resurrection Hope' through and realise that it doesn't work out for the one who dies. It's fine for the people who loved them and made it through armageddon, because they get a perfect copy of their loved one back, but not for the original person who never gets to see paradise. And as most people who will be alive in paradise will be the resurrected, it will be an almost complete population of clones. It's a very strange thing to think all the way through. I'm amazed that I got to my thirties before doing that.
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VM44
"Resurrection involves a reactivating of the life pattern of the individual, which life pattern God has retained in his memory. According to God’s will for the individual, the person is restored in either a human body or a spirit body; yet he retains his personal identity, having the same personality and memories as when he died."
Notice that the Watchtower does not explain how this "reactivating of the life pattern" benefits the individual who died.
Can the person who is living now really look forward to experience what the "reactivated individual" will experience in the future?
--VM44