The JW's Concept of The Resurrection, a False Hope?

by VM44 30 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • moggy lover
    moggy lover

    I feel the problem stemmed from the original ideas held by the founder of the WT movement, CT Russell. Seeing himself as standing apart from "Christendon" and unable to reconcile a God of Love with his faulty concept of a burning hell, he supplied a definition of "resurrection" that was ultimately inadequate.

    He defined the word "resurrection" as "Being brought back to life" Period. In this definition, if a person does survive death albeit in some other form, a spirit, say, then that person was already "alive" and there would therefore be no need to "resurrect" him/her. To solve this problem, since CTR was no deep thinker in the mold of the Greek thinkers of antiquity, nor did he have any theological or philosophical training,he assumed that the person had to be totally dead in his/her very being. Which leads to annihilation, a state of non existence, nothingness.

    In this respect he failed to see that there was indeed no continuity between the two states of being before and after "resurrection" The being who is "resurrected" has no continuous link of the psyche, the ego, id, call the essential kernal of human existence whatever you want, with the one who died. He/she is like the person who died, even to the extent of being 100% like him/her. But the reality is that they are two different persons. The original simply no longer exists.

    If Russell had consulted even a basic theological dictionary, written for 5 yr olds, rather than rely on his own human reasoning, he would have read that "Resurrection" means "Bringing back to life of the body" The real cruelty of death is that it does something that was never originally intentended to be: The seperation of the "outer" person with the "inner" or "psyche" Evidently this state of being, called by some theologians the "intermediate" state is a cause of sorrow and brings on a sense of weariness, where the resurrection of the body is awaited. [Rev 6:9,10] Joining the two, which is what the resurrection describes, keeps that continuity intact.

    The most diabolical part of the WT view is what they really teach about Christ Jesus. When He died he too was annihilated.In other words, passed into nothing.He ceased to exist.When "He" was resurrected by jehooverver, the memory banks that constituted His previous existence, His computer software programme [which remember has no personality, it is merely an abstaction], if you like, was implanted into another being created by jeehoover.

    So the guy who is sitting at gods right hand at this moment, and evidently conversing merrily with the "annointed ones" who have gone before, is an imposter. He did not die for you and me. He merely has the memory of that person implanted into him. The Jesus who died for you and me simply no longer exists.

    Grotesque. And I actually believed this stuff.

    Cheers

  • truthsearcher
    truthsearcher

    Go, moggy, go! Well said, and when you think about it that way, it is kind of sickening, isn't it? It is a warped twisting of biblical teaching on so many different levels.

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    Just playing the devil's advocate for a moment (you know I love that part)

    The WT doctrine certainly does not do justice to most Biblical (or, more broadly, ancient) conceptions of death and resurrection. But the negative part of it suits modern anthropology quite well. According to the latter, there is no "little man inside" which corresponds to "soul," "spirit" or even "mind". The ego, subject, or self are not "things". We are bodies speaking and thinking, although we can neither speak or think as such consistently.

    The WT version of individual eschatology is subjectively unsatisfying indeed. But the question subsists whether any other individual eschatology can suit modern anthropology and be subjectively satisfying.

  • BluesBrother
    BluesBrother

    I like the thinking in this thread. Is this a suitable illustration?

    Suppose I have some downloaded music in my computer. I burn a c.d and give to a friend . Next day he says that it got damaged or he lost it. So, I burn off another one with the same content , which to our ears is identical. Is it the same c.d? No, it is another copy. Nothing in the world can turn the new disc into the one that was lost . So a person "resurrected " under the J W teaching would be someone else - has to be.

    Anybody else remember an old sci fi film "Star Man"where Beau Bridges played an outer space charecter who had the same characteristics and looks as the girl's dead husband . It was not him though, was it?

    Also on the Ress.

    It is the established teaching that "The common grave of dead mankind " will be opened and all men, righteous and unrighteous, will live again . Except for the incorrigibly wicked whom Jehovah has consigned to Gehenna.

    I believe that humankind have been mostly pretty much the same. Any reading of history will reveal human nature just as we see it now.Does it not seem odd, that the unrighteous who are unlucky enough to be alive at the end get eternal death, whereas the unrighteous who are dead, get life?

    It does not seem fair, or a godly way of doing things. There is a great advantage in dying early according to this belief.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    The Society's position is designed to harmonize their belief that a person perishes at death (= Sadducee eschatology) with the biblical teaching of the resurrection (= Pharisee / early Christian eschatology), which ends up being an unworkable hybrid of the two. The Society gives far greater weight to Ecclesiastes (which is a proto-Sadducee work) than to all the other NT texts that could be elicited to either attest belief in an afterlife or the nature of the resurrrection (hence Luke 16 is downplayed and allegorized in favor of Ecclesiastes). That's all fine and well, except that the Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection (Matthew 22:23, Mark 12:18, Luke 20:27, Acts 23:8). So the Society redefines resurrection in a way that must accommodate the whole NT emphasis on resurrection. Hence, the unbiblical claim that a person's "personality pattern" is remembered by God and would be restored in a newly created body in the resurrection. That way, there would be some semblance of continuity between the two distinct persons.

    The concept is not only unbiblical but has no parallel in wide body of early Jewish and Christian literature on the resurrection, much of which points to a post-mortem intermediate state of the spirit or soul (see Revelation 6:9-10 for an example which uses the word "soul" with reference to the afterlife). A particularly weak attempt to ground this teaching biblically is to point to the use of the word mnémeion "tomb" (overtranslated in the NWT as "memorial tomb," since the word is etymologically derived from the word meaning "remember") as indicating that the dead would be resurrected out of God's memory:

    *** w58 3/1 p. 159 Questions From Readers ***

    [T]he principal thing is to be remembered not by humans but by Almighty God, to be retained in his memory as deserving of another life by the resurrection from the dead. Evidently when the Lord Jesus said: "The hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment," he was referring to God’s memory, to the dead being retained in God’s mind. Our being retained in his memory is most important, because he is the only one who has power to raise the dead by means of Jesus Christ during his thousand-year reign over mankind. Because the Greek word used here by Jesus, mnemei´on, includes the thought of memory, we may have hope for those who are dead in the memorial tombs that they will be remembered by God with a resurrection.

    But mnémeion is simply the word for "tomb," as opposed to "grave". It should be abundantly obvious such a word was coined by ancient Greeks (who had no concept of resurrection) because tombs were places where the deceased is remembered and eulogized by other people (cf. our English expressions "memorial park," "memorial service"). This word was not invented by Jesus; it had a long history in Greek as a word for "tomb". The whole concept of "God's memory" is entirely external to the text and is quite plainly being read into it here.

    But regardless of whether this concept is biblical or not, it does not supply the needed continuity between the "resurrected" person and the one that had died. Such continuity could be posited by construing the spirit that returns to God as some internal "essence" of the person that transfers his individuality to God, who would later restore that individual "spirit" -- tho unconscious -- to a new body. In fact, that was what I really privately believed in my years as a JW, for I could never make much sense of the official doctrine. But this too is denied by the Society. The spirit is merely an impersonal animating life force, like electricity. In the article I quoted on the previous page of this thread (1 September 1955 Watchtower, p. 538-539), the Society says that "when the dead body returns to the earth as it was, that spirit or active force that animated that body returns to its source, it quits operating in that body," and "the spirit that then returns to God is not an invisible, immortal counterpart of that mortal body, having all its characteristics". If the spirit does not transfer a person's individuality to God to be kept for safekeeping, and if the body perishes to dust, then the original person has been fully destroyed. Thus the Society says:

    *** w50 5/15 p. 149 par. 19 Living Up to the Name ***

    Man is a living, sentient creature and, like all other animals, ceases to exist when he dies. (Ezek. 18:4, 20; Eccl. 3:19)

    *** w65 12/1 p. 708 Is Your Life Affected by Angels? ***

    Humans who have died could not be included among these angels, because at death a man’s personality does not continue to exist. "The living are conscious that they will die," the Bible says; "but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all." And of the death of man, the Scriptures say: "His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts do perish." No part of man continues alive.

    *** vi p. 13 par. 21 [1986] Victory Over Death—Is It Possible for You? ***

    When the body dies, the soul is dead, it ceases to exist. Neither do you become a disembodied spirit, or atma. Why not? Because the atma is the impersonal life-force, or spirit, which animates the living soul, and which empowers the soul to think, move, and live. When the life-force, or atma, is extinguished within the living soul, the effect is similar to what happens when electricity is withdrawn from a light bulb. The light is extinguished. Where does the light go? It simply becomes nonexistent.

    *** bh chap. 6 p. 58 par. 5 [2005] Where Are the Dead? ***

    What happens at death is no mystery to Jehovah, the Creator of the brain. He knows the truth, and in his Word, the Bible, he explains the condition of the dead. Its clear teaching is this: When a person dies, he ceases to exist. Death is the opposite of life. The dead do not see or hear or think. Not even one part of us survives the death of the body.

    That is why "reincarnation" is imho a wholly inappropriate term because the Society is explicit that "not even one part of us survives the death of the body," for the person becomes non-existent at death. Nothing is being incarnated again. With the destruction of the original anything else has to be a copy. One could say that God's memory could preserve a most perfect record of a person's personality and characteristics, but that record is just that ... a record, a copy of a now-destroyed original. What proves that it is a copy is the fact that nothing would logically prevent God from "resurrecting" two Leolaias, rather than just one. How about 144,000 Leolaias? God could conceivably place that record of the "life pattern" in any number of bodies. So which one of the 144,000 Leolaias is the real one? Or are they all the same person who died many years earlier? Would that mean I can expect to live 144,000 lives simultaneously in the resurrection? Or would each Leolaia be a clone that would only be implanted with my own memories, and would believe that she is me, but really is a new individual while my prior existance remains terminated?

    Those are questions I have never seen addressed in the literature. Rather, the Society only has a facile equation between copy and original, leading to some pretty terrible metaphors of the process. I first encountered this teaching at the age of 8 at the book study. The book was Life Does Have a Purpose (published in 1977) and we were considering it at the book study. And we came to pp. 116-117 which introduced the "God's memory" concept:

    Note especially what they say: "In order to resurrect a person, God has to know everything about him. Only with this information can God bring back the same person with the same personality, so that the individual will be himself and recognize himself". This implies continuity of existence...the individual will be the "same person". Okay, I could understand if my existence has been preserved in God's memory and that he will "restore" this in a new body. But to illustrate this, they have a picture of a film recording that quite clearly is a copy of the original voice and appearance of a person. This confounded me a great deal. I just knew instinctively that a tape-recording was not the same thing as the original, so how could a resurrected person be the same person that had died? Then a few weeks later, the book study covered the same concept again:

    *** lp chap. 15 p. 175 par. 16 The End of Sickness and Death ***

    As to the resurrected ones, God will accurately "re-create" each individual with his entire life pattern, personality and memory just as it was. The one resurrected will be able to identify himself as the same person. Also, his former associates will know him by his appearance and characteristics. He can then resume life after the interruption caused by his death, possessing the same motivations, leanings and traits that he displayed beforehand. However, his past sins and mistakes will not be brought up as charges against him. Why not? Because God’s purpose in bringing him back to earth is to provide opportunity for him to take advantage of Christ’s sacrifice and be freed of sin. Yet, what the individual did in the past, if bad, would have its effect on his personality, and the resulting bad traits would have to be overcome. The more unrighteous his past course was, the more he will have to change. Some may not take advantage of the opportunity to change.—Isaiah 26:10.

    To the person who is resurrected, the time period that he was dead would be, to him, only an instant, since death is a nonexistence. It is likened in the Bible to a deep sleep. (John 11:11-14; 1 Thessalonians 4:13, 14; Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10) Thousands of years, or a day, would seem like only a moment of time. To the one resurrected, the experience would be like walking through a doorway out of the present wicked system of things into the righteous, orderly new system of things.

    This only intensified my confusion. Here the book is saying that death brings "nonexistence" and that the resurrection involves God "recreating" person, not bringing back the original. So, again, how can the resurrected person be the same person who died if that person became nonexistent? The statement "the one resurrection will be able to identify himself as the same person" rang hollow. She may think she is the same person, but is she really the same person? So little 8-year-old me raised my hand to ask this question. I don't remember very many comments I made at the meetings, but I do remember this one. I turned their attention to the picture on p. 117 and pointed out that a tape-recording makes a copy of the original voice, so if that is a copy, wouldn't the resurrected person be a copy too? In what way is it the same person? I really wanted to know, because both of my grandmothers had just died and I wanted to know if I would see them again. But the elder presiding over the book study didn't give my a satisfactory answer, he just assured me that I would understand when I grow up. But I think I hit upon the very paradox of the Watchtower resurrection belief.

  • V
    V

    I feel like Leolaia and I are firing on a target from two positions. I just hope that this information helps deconstruct the JW "resurrection" hope.

    1) If the JW says that the body dies completely and is then resurrected with nothing connecting the two bodies then Leolaia's statements apply: the "resurrected" person is in fact a copy who thinks they are the same person. (Leolaia's point)

    2) If the JW insisits that there is a connection between the two bodies in that 'they are alive in Jehovah's memory' (Watchtower July 1, 1998 page 13, para. 2) then the JW is really teaching reincarnation not resurrection. (V's point)

    So at this point the JW is shutting down on you, either insisting that the "cloned" replicant is still that person because they look, think and remember the same things. But there is another problem:

    Erasing Memories

    Awake! 1988 8/8 p.11 Atrocities—What Is God’s Solution?

    In the resurrection those killed in atrocities as well as others long dead will be raised from the dead and will be given the opportunity to live forever on a paradise earth. (Luke 23:43) And in time "the former things will not be called to mind, neither will they come up into the heart."—Isaiah 65:17.

    Watchtower 1997 2/15 p.7 When Suffering Will Be No More

    Whatever tragedies may have occurred during this temporary toleration of evil will all be remedied. Even the memories of human pain and suffering—never purposed by God—will be totally erased. "The former distresses will actually be forgotten... The former things will not be called to mind," Isaiah prophesied. (Isaiah 65:16, 17)

    Awake! 1987 10/8 p.8 Evil and Suffering—How Will They End?

    Wickedness will thus be virtually erased from our memories!—Compare Isaiah 65:17.

    So both "resurrected" and survivors will have their memories sanitized. You see the one thing that makes up our personality, our memories (according to JWs), the one thing that stays "alive" with God, will be parsed and snipped until we are all happy again.

    The 'resurrected' clone must now decide whether it wants to give up its newly implanted bad memories or be destroyed for non-compliance.

    Is that paradise or divine lobotomy?

  • poppers
    poppers

    Not intending to hijack the thread, but frankie's question is crucial: "WHich also makes me also question, are all past thoughts, that are cosidered to make up the "me" or "I" a real individual or are these too (the me or I) just imaginary?" The central question to "resurrection" is this: Who am I really? What is it that would be resurrected? Find out who you are when memories/thoughts of "me" aren't here, then see if "resurrection" has relevance. See if you can find something beyond any imaginary notions of what you are.

  • moggy lover
    moggy lover

    Can we then safely say, having viewed the matter objectively, that the WTS does not teach the "resurrection" in any way that defines the biblical concept. What they actually teach is "recreation" [V might say this is "reincarnation"] tarted up to look like they teach the resurrection. To mislead the unwary.

    Incedently that quote by Leolaia of Ip pg 175 par 16 must be an editorial gremlin for the WT writers, which they unintentionally let slip through. It is the only reference to "recreation" in their literature I can find. [They do use the term in the NWT, at one place Matt 19:28. Theirs is the only translation I can find that says this]

    By the way, Leolaia, just to keep our references straight, what is the literature designated "Ip"?

    Cheers

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    V....That's also a good observation about the tampering of memories, as it undercuts the claim that "God will accurately "re-create" each individual with his entire life pattern, personality and memory just as it was", which is the basis of asserting identity on the basis of similarity (i.e. "the same person with the same personality"), as opposed to continuity of existence.

    moggy lover....As mentioned in my first post to this thread, the biblical concept is entirely different. Think of Paul's metaphor: a seed is buried in the ground (just as a person is when he or she has died) and from it grows a beautiful new plant. Quite different from a seed being completely destroyed, God remembering everything there is the know about the life of that seed, and then recreating a seed from his memory banks. A plant has a continuity of existence with the seed that germinates it.

    By the way, Leolaia, just to keep our references straight, what is the literature designated "Ip"?

    "lp" is Life Does Have a Purpose, the same book that is scanned in my post.

  • jwfacts
    jwfacts

    If the soul does not continue, but the resurrected one is simply a recreated memory then there is nothing to stop God recreating us while we are still alive. We could have multiple clones being released simultaneously.

    Likewise, if God will change the physical body that we were oiginally in, for instance giving legs to a person born legless because they were not perfectly formed, then there is nothing to stop him changing all the other parts of us that he did not like, including our memories, emotions and thought patterns.

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