Hate Crime..No..Belittleing you and damaging your property,yes..All Jehovah`s Witness`s involved will want to sweep this under the carpet ASAP..In time it will be something that never happened..Go to the police and charge them..Give them something to remember,they won`t otherwise..WBT$ does not govern anybody,except thier own idiots..Don`t let them govern you...OUTLAW
UPDATE!: THEY ALL ADMITTED EGGING US -Elders now know, heads are rolling!!
by Lady Liberty 184 Replies latest jw friends
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exjdub
I agree that the incident does not rise up to the level of beating someone to within an inch of their life simply because they are homosexual, or bombing a church. However, what is the definition of a hate crime? It is a crime that is motivated by prejudice and hate. What was the motivation for damaging LL's property? The motivation was prejudice and hate. Who is to say that the incident would not have escalated to something more severe if the idiots weren't caught?
Where do you draw the line for a hate crime? Would you draw the line at whether or not somebody was hurt, as opposed to "just" property damage? That is essentially what you are saying. If that is where you draw the line then burning a cross on an African American's property would not be a hate crime...but it clearly is! The only way to determine whether something is a hate crime or not is what motivated the crime. If LL had not been an Ex JW who celebrated Christmas her property would have been left alone. That by definition is a hate crime..
exjdub
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rockhound
Has this incident been blown all out of proportion? Hardly! Could the Frosty be fixed? No doubt! Could the eggs be cleaned up? It has probably been done already. An act of vandalisim? Certainly! But the real ROT lies in the motive, and what made it alright in all their eyes. When Adam and Eve ate a small piece of fruit from a fruit tree in the garden, was Jehovah God overreacting by condemning them to death. Was it the loss of a single piece of fruit that was so offensive to God,and the real issue? The real issue was the motive behind their actions. In the case of Lady Liberty's molested frosty, the motive behind those who took improper liberties with "Frosty" was religious bigotry and ''Hatred" Note the following:
Check this article out:
Why So Much Hate?
found at this address: http://corior.blogspot.com/2006/02/why-so-much-hate.html
In part, Norman commented:
The article also mentions different causes for such hatred:
"All of us know people whose characteristics or habits may irritate us at times and with whom we find it hard to interact. But irritation is one thing; the desire to do people bodily harm is something else. We, therefore, may find it difficult to comprehend how a person can nurse feelings of hatred for entire groups of people, oftentimes people he does not even know. They may disagree with his political views, belong to a different religion, or be of another ethnic group, but is that a reason to hate them?" (Awake! September 8, 1997, page 4)
It is unfortunately a fact that people hate each other from totally irrational reasons.
In particular we see many exampleswhere differences in religious views have lead to horrible tragedies and enormous suffering. The Awake! magazine continues with an article titled: "A World Taught to Hate". This article mentions elements like political elections, ruthless politicians, clergy who wants to be popular and make money, rearing of children, videogames and racism, as causes for such hatred.
What about Jehovah's Witnesses?
What is the attitude of Jehovah's Witnesses towards this problem? Are they different from "worldly people" in this matter? Let us find out:...
ROCKHOUND
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ButtLight
Im trying to keep up with all the posts, but..........
Was it ever mentioned that the neighbors truely have a video?
LL, did you talk to them?
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OUTLAW
Guilotine!..Guilotine!..Lop off their heads!..LOL!!...OUTLAW
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sf
Okay, before I read further...
"frosty" was attacked!!
LOL!!!!
the guy who admitted pulling down and attacking frosty..mind you this guy is 44 or 45 years old! My husband asked him why he would do this, and he said I don't know we were just being stupid. I was hanging out with a bunch of younger (35ish) guys and we were just being dumb.
LOL!!!! Was this the attack on Frosty that was shown on the national news recently? {no, I'm not kidding, but I AM laughing [ http://www.wzzm13.com/news/local/grmetro_article.aspx?storyid=67227 ]
Jws are not exempt from taking responsibilities for their CRIMINAL ACTIONS in this world, no matter how much they cry that they are no part of it.
It really is a no-brainer Lady.
sKally
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Legolas
Sorry I don't have time to read 8 pages..LOL...Are you pressing charges or not?
I say PRESS CHARGES!
BTW..If that happened to me, I assure you that they would all be in jail or the hosiptal by the time I finished with them!
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abbagail
"An eye for an eye." And a "Frosty for a Frosty."
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LOL! THAT is a Priceless Jewel of "annotated" scripture. Ingenious. Crack me up, and let's fry some eggs... on THEIR childish heads...
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I'm in shock that GROWN MEN even conceived of doing such idiotic things. Surely they were drunk? (What else could account for such a lapse of reason?) If there really was NO alcohol involved, and "booze-less" card-playing alone promotes such activity, the WT needs to do an article about the "grave dangers of card-playing." :-/
Internet (YouTube) and public media exposure I'd think is the best "punishment" = public humiliation. Wasn't it "public exposure" that made the WT pull it's NGO-status el pronto? "Let your LIGHT SHINE before men" by putting the spotlight on these grown-up "egg-heads."
If any legal procedures are taken, it'd be great for them to be "required" to do "community service"... and even better if LL and Hubbie get to have any say-so in what the community service is... such as, "They must be required to come assist us at our next gathering" (where you would, of course, be expounding on all the inerrant teachings of the WT, etc.). That way you get to "punish them" twice, ie, via community service AND having them HEAR the "truth about the truth."
Whatever happens, I hope it is to your "utmost" satisfaction.
/abbagail -
johnny cip
i read half of this thread; good for you for planting some seeds. it all works out in the end......................................................... john
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Oroborus21
Howdy,
been busy so late to this party..but here are my two cents.
General comment to all:
Dial back the animousity for a moment and get a grip people. Most JWs would be mortified at the conduct of these grown men. Even if they were teens, most JWs would be mortified. This lapse of judgment on the part of these clowns and their bad acts has nothing to do with other JWs.
Lady Lib:
You have some interesting things to think about. There are a lot of ways that you can act in this situation and each one will have its own pros and cons and consequences positive and negative for you and your family.
#1 The very first thing (which I see you got told about by someone, maybe privately) is to stop posting and be careful about anything you post publicly. I would also be careful about anything you communicate privately via email or otherwise with anyone. Anything related to this situation might come out one way or another and might be used against you or in a way that you can't control.
#2, Get a hold of a copy of that tape, if it exists. If you have to buy it off of the person, including all rights to it, do so. Its value may go up after you bring attention to this matter or it will have value even if the situation doesn't escalate.
#3, find out whether the Police/DA have opened an investigation. You can do this without committing yourself to proceeding with filing a complaint.
read Rebel8's post (page 7) this thread. She is dead on. (From her post: The only thing a little off IMHO is that the Police, even though receiving a report from the OP, may be waiting to receive a complaint from you. So you may want to look into whether they have decided to act on that complaint or not.)
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As you know, there are two legal arenas to play in. Civil court and Criminal Court.
In addition to these two legal avenues, there is the Court of Public Opinion (aka the Media and Notoriety) and I will also add a fourth road that you can go down.
None of these roads are exclusive. You can go down one or more or all of them simultaneously.
Road #1.
In the Criminal system, you only get to make your complaint to the law authorities (and perhaps district attorney's office) and agree to cooperate in the investigation and provide evidence/testimony if asked. But they control the game and what does or doesn't happen. Keep in mind, though, that sometimes there is no going back and the criminal process can be a runaway train once it gets started and can go its own way completely based on unrelated factors. (Just look at the Nifong/Duke LaCrosse example.). So if you do make a complaint, you will have to live with the consequences and have no regrets about the outcome.
As for the "hate crime" aspect of this. Hate crimes examine the motivations of the perpetrators and also what was done is a large part of reaching the hate crime conclusion. Scurrilous words scrawled on your house, etc. would have been most helpful. Simply egging or breaking up Frosty is going to be a REAL stretch for any prosecution of a hate crime. And trying to prove that the WTBTS's published statements somehow transmits into these guys' actions, that's a real real real hard stretch. I don't see it happening. (the scenario reminds me of a law school or bar fact scenario. lots of reasons and connections to make but some are more fanciful than others.)
You might want to contact the ACLU and see what they think of the matter. They might be able to advise you criminally and civily. Also the local DA or law authorities might feel more prodded to action if the ACLU was involved.
Road #2
In the Civil arena, you have some choices and evaluating to do.
(by the way forget about the class action suggestion. That's a clueless suggestion and not a possibility.)
Here you need to talk to a few lawyers in your area. That's the bottom line - forget about whatever the forum participants are telling you because what it comes down to is whether you either have the energy, money, etc. to press things yourself or whether can find a legal advocate to do it for you. (and that latter part comes down to $$$, winnability, and maybe other factors like prestige or whether you can find someone like the ACLU (who would do so as part of its mission) or a lawyer who dislikes JWs to do it for you for free or on the cheap (for personal reasons).)
INMHO,
I see that you have any EASILY winnable Small Claims action for your damages to Frosty and your car. You should document those costs. Your filing costs are recuperable. You will need to ascertain with certainty at least one of the persons that committed the torts before proceeding. (their statements of apology are helpful as admissions by the way).
Have extra fun by having these JWs served by the Sheriff's department OR if you really wanted to have some fun, round up four or five of the baddest Apostates (the JWs know in your area) and have these friends serve them the court notices inside the Kingdom Hall on Sunday. (you, as a party can't do the serving as you probably know but you can have fun videotaping it of course!)
As for pursuing other civil actions, the things like trespass, etc. are winnable but you have to do a cost v. benefit analysis and it simply might not be worth it economically.
As for bigger possible causes of action, (e.g. Intentional Infliction of Emotional Distress, etc.) and especially trying to somehow include the WTBTS as a defendant, those things are extremely unlikely (for reasons that don't need elaboration) and what it comes down to is that it is almost certainly much more costly than what you would win in damages.
Road #3.
This is a "hey Martha" story, especially with the tape in hand. But time is running out for it to be topical for the local news. I would say you have until February before losing the interest of TV/Radio at the latest, if not sooner. The newspaper might be interested for a longer period, especially if there is a "case" ongoing, otherwise they won't be interested in a New Year's Eve story that doesn't feature any severe damages to you or trauma.
Naturally, you can milk this event for a lot of publicity on the Internet and in Religious Media, so there's that. Write up some clever press releases or letters. And of course, figure out a few good points and quotes to give them when they call.
Road #4 includes....
Some might say the Christian Road :-) of turning the other cheek includes everything from showing them that ex-Witnesses are not "the evil slave" they (JWs) make them out to be by letting the whole thing drop; To the Mosaic road of having these JWs come to your house and wash your car and assemble a New Frosty (that they bought) (all videotaped of course) on your front lawn, for all the world to see; TO using the threats of Roads !,2,3 above as leverage to get the JWs to do something else. As others have said, issuing a public apology from the platform (though again this didn't have anything to do with the local congregation itself), having the elders give a local needs talk, or something else that would make them regret their conduct and perhaps squirm.
Road 4, maybe with Road 3, lets you derive the most personal satisfaction without a lot of the headaches of roads 1 & 2. (Though a Small Claims action is easy and just having them served as I suggested seems worth it to me and won't involve you having to miss too much work to show up court or deal with the case.)