Last days, great tribulation and the return of Christ

by S EIGHT 32 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Gill

  Hi S EIGHT and welcome!

  Things get even more confusing when you add to the mixing pot, that Jesus was an ordinary bloke who will NOT be returning!

  Then, when you add a little intriguing fact that he Sermon on The Mount was written several hundred years before Jesus was born, you can start to question and wonder about lots of little things that we are making into big things!!

  There is no Armageddon! There is no second coming! And perhaps its time to do a little Bible research of your own!

  Good Luck! And try not to be too shocked at what you find out about Christianity, the Bible etc!
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  Narkissos

  the Sermon on The Mount was written several hundred years before Jesus was born

  Huh?

  I presume it's an overstatement for "a few general aphorisms like the so-called 'Golden Rule' are found in many civilisations, even before and apart from Judaism and Christianity" but you never know...
• 

  Gill

  Hi Narkissos - I read about this in a couple of books on why the Dead Sea Scrolls were not all allowed publicity by the Church.

  Some of the scrolls are dated a couple of hundred years before 'Jesus' and are virtually the same in reading.

  Just as Moses may have copied Hammurabi, who several hundred years before him 'climbed to a high place and received God's commandments', but this time engraved in copper, so the circle of repetition in religion goes on.

  Good ideas did not originate with Moses and Jesus, but go back far in the distant past of human history. We might never be able to put an exact time, or date, or person, to good ideas.
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  Narkissos

  I read about this in a couple of books on why the Dead Sea Scrolls were not all allowed publicity by the Church.

  The Qumran scrolls are now completely published, it's taken some time but I don't think "the Church" is the cause...

  Some of the scrolls are dated a couple of hundred years before 'Jesus' and are virtually the same in reading.

  I suppose that's the kind of theory you could build up as long as the scrolls were not entirely published. Now they are: so where are the texts?

  The DSS (the bulk of which has been well known since the 1950s) provide a wealth of background information for the NT beliefs, ideas, words and phrases. But not a single convincing example of something even remotely resembling a NT text.

  But about the ultimately untraceable character of ideas I agree.
• 

  Gill

  Narkissos! Looks like you're going to make me have to do research again, and find those darned books.....and the right page etc
• 

  avidbiblereader

  S Eight, welcome and sorry you have to rush off, I hope that all is well in your home. It isn't like you are looking at porn but to the JW this is worst then porn. Anyway I agree with you that we are living in the last days.

  I however think that some of the greatest problems and some of the reasons they have lost their credibility is because of MRIing every scripture and thinking they know it all. Paul was humble enough and yet full of HS to say that he didn't and didn't just say that and then write all sorts of other things to get others to believe HIS interpretation of the scriptures.

  1 Cor 13: 9, 12 9 Now our knowledge is partial and incomplete, and even the gift of prophecy reveals only part of the whole picture! vss 12 12 Now we see things imperfectly as in a cloudy mirror, but then we will see everything with perfect clarity. All that I know now is partial and incomplete, but then I will know everything completely, just as God now knows me completely.

  I think less about prophecy and yet can see the end where Jesus said we are but I focus more on what the Bible emphasised and that is Love, Love of God and Christ, love my neighbor and faith in the sacrifice of the Christ. Building Christian qualities and leaving everything else up to God. If it doesn't bring praise to God the Father through Christ to me it is not important. Like everyone else we will have to wait. I think we all have a lot wrong and very little right Roms 3:4, 10-12 (Read it and look what it says about ALL of mankind). I think we should not judge and be loving and kind as we patiently wait to see EXACTLY how these things will come to pass.

  In reading the Bible, angels waited for revelations and still do, Christ didn't know everything and still doesn't according to 1 Cor 2:16, the apostles agreed they didnt' know everything and it wasn't important. Love, faith and christian qualities is what I focus on.

  Notice 1 Cor 8::1-3 in the NLT 1 Now regarding your question about food that has been offered to idols. Yes, we know that “we all have knowledge” about this issue. But while knowledge makes us feel important, it is love that strengthens the church. 2 Anyone who claims to know all the answers doesn’t really know very much. 3 But the person who loves God is the one whom God recognizes.

  abr
• 

  Terry

  What must not be forgotten is that, as far as history is concerned, the whole passage is centered on the Fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple in 70 AD. This is the point throughout (v. 1-3; the "holy place" in v. 15; "Judea" in v. 16; "sabbath" in v. 20).

  ...and this was surely written AFTER the events AS THOUGH it were said BEFORE.

  Further, this was the belief among the early community of Jesus-believers (both Messianic Jews and proto-Christians) which was the absolute certainty that the RETURN of Jesus was any-minute-now.

  This was a false belief as history has shown. End of story.

  But, not.

  People wouldn't let go of the ONLY hope/theory/conjecture/belief/obsession left to them.

  And they still don't as your topic demonstrates.
• 

  lovelylil

  Narkissos,

  Thanks for your reply. I'm sorry if what I wrote sounds confusing, I tried to put it as simply as possible. I'm just trying to show that there is another way of viewing those scriptures which show that they could be fulfilled in the future. This view btw is shared by many people world wide and this includes bible commentators and scholars.

  There are two events being asked about the destruction of the temple and the coming of Christ. The opening words make that clear. However, the early disciples would have linked these two together as events that happen at the same time. They had already asked if Christ was coming to restore the kingdom at that time and thus probably thought when the temple is destroyed, that the kingdom will be restored to Isreal. However, they were wrong. It was not until later on that the disciples understood that we (Believers) would not know what time period the Lord would return to establish his kingdom on earth.

  Christ gives signs for both events but does not distinguish them sharply that is why it is important to really read and meditate on what is being said. We know some of the events fortold did not happen in connection with jerusalem at that time so either A) this prophecy will be left unfulfilled B) it will be fulfilled at a later time. I choose the latter for several reasons including that it is not uncommon to have two events for different time periods spoken of together but not sharply distinguised. Other Bible books were this occurs are Ezekiel, Daniel, Jeremiah, Isaiah, Revelation. Also I am looking at it from the perspective of a believer and thus I believe God's word to be true and to not return to him without results and thus there is really no such thing as a prophecy left unfulfilled, at least not forever. These events are yet future and only time will tell for sure.

  We will have to just agree to disagree on this point. Just wanted all to see that there is another view out there regarding the Matthew 24 text, Peace, Lilly
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  Narkissos

  Terry,

  ...and this was surely written AFTER the events AS THOUGH it were said BEFORE.

  I agree with you, although it is worth noting that there are still a number of scholars to date at least an early form of Mark 13 before (not necessarily much before) 70 AD.

  Further, this was the belief among the early community of Jesus-believers (both Messianic Jews and proto-Christians) which was the absolute certainty that the RETURN of Jesus was any-minute-now.

  That was probably the dominant belief, but right from the start there may also have been an important section of the Christian nebula (Hellenistic and early Gnostic) that had little interest in apocalyptic eschatology.

  lovelylil,

  We will have to just agree to disagree on this point. Just wanted all to see that there is another view out there regarding the Matthew 24 text

  No problem. Iwanted to show why it is textually problematic -- especially in Mark or Matthew, that is. For Luke otoh solves most of the problems, by clearly separating the fall of Jerusalem and the parousia, and introducing the indefinite "times of Gentiles" in between.
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  lovelylil

  Narkissos,

  Good point about the verses in Luke. You are correct they are more clear there. It is interesting how the gospel writers wrote from their own perspectives with some adding more details to certain events than others. I included Luke in parenthesis but am glad you pointed out that in his account he distinguishes between the events in a much clearer way. Although the events are the same in Matthew, you really have to look to see where they are distingished. For the novice bible reader you can easily skip over them and link them together as one event. Luke 21:35 also seems to show some future events that happen upon the "whole face of the earth" not just in Jerusalem. Showing a future fufillment of this prophecy. Thanks again, Lilly