Last days, great tribulation and the return of Christ

by S EIGHT 32 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  kid-A

  "1. Conditions on the earth during the last days worsen but the end is not yet."

  Worsen relative to what? In reality, human lifespans are increasing, the quality and health of humanity is infinitely superior to even 75 years ago. Natural catastrophies are at the same or lower levels then they have been over the last several million years. Conditions are NOT worsening, but continually improving relative to the past. This "apocalyptic" mindset is pure "Watchtower".....

  "2. There will be a preaching work and also a lot of false prophets."

  There have always been hundreds of thousands of religions, cults, sects, prophets, madmen, shamans, holy men, etc etc. This is not new, will always be the case and has always been the case. There is no "prophetic" significance in this statement relative to the past or present.

  "3. After the tribulation of those days - i.e. the days that Jesus was just talking about - i.e. the tribulation discussed in the first point, when things are just too bad to continue, Jesus returns and everyone see's him - all the tribes of the earth."

  > I doubt it. But if "waiting for Godot" is what gets you through the night, good luck with that. Like the JWs, you are gonna find yourself waiting a long, long, long, time......
• 

  Narkissos

  you really have to look to see where they are distingished.

  Just for the sake of clarity, where we differ is whether the distinction can actually be read in Matthew 24 or is read into it.

  The whole (extant) Gospel of Matthew admittedly allows for long-term expectation in many places (e.g. the added parables in 24:36--25 and the conclusion in 28:18ff). But 24:1-35 doesn't lend to it easily imo.
• 

  lovelylil

  Narkissos,

  I see your point but it makes more sense to me that these things are not "read into" rather are in full harmony with the other gospel accounts though written down somewhat differently. But I can understand why you feel the way you do as there certainly has been editing to texts over the years regarding the scriptures and some people do view that as an attempt to harmonize texts that would not otherwise harmonize with each other. Whereas others feel the texts were changed slightly to fit the audience they are targeting though the substance stays the same. But I guess you have to make the dicision yourself what wieght you give bible accounts. And if we disagree on interpretation then that is fine too. Lilly
• 

  Terry

  Further, this was the belief among the early community of Jesus-believers (both Messianic Jews and proto-Christians) which was the absolute certainty that the RETURN of Jesus was any-minute-now.

  That was probably the dominant belief, but right from the start there may also have been an important section of the Christian nebula (Hellenistic and early Gnostic) that had little interest in apocalyptic eschatology.

  Yep, no doubt. The dominant group probably (psychologically) could only survive and flourish BECAUSE they were thinking they should hang on due to the "any moment now" aspect of their rescue by the returning messiah.

  Certainly I cannot possibly imagine JW's having lasted this long without the constant drumbeat of Armageddon hanging over every waking moment of life.

  Mainstream churches these days seem to sop up every morsel of LAST DAYS they can manage because it seems to promise that their latent fantasy life will suddenly become REAL any moment!

  Nothing like that nagging feeling to keep you going.
• 

  Terry

  How events in a story are "edited" together is what gives the flow a directional context and lends itself to interpretations (as any mystery novel reader is aware).

  Agatha Christie, for example, presents characters and events carefully to keep your interest in guessing who the killer might be. If she came right out and told you on the first page there really would be no point in reading the story AS A MYSTERY. It might make a fascinating character study, but; not a mystery.

  So too, the mystery aspect of the New Testmanent only becomes the intriguing lure it has become because it promises to impact upon present day life immediately with the IMPENDING event editing and juxtapositions.

  Ask yourself what your interest would be if the gospels had clearly stated that there was no FUTURE event called the 2nd coming and that we are all own our own forever with merely the values and advice of Rabbi Jesus.
• 

  lovelylil

  It is very interesting that even though the early Christians believed that Christ's return could be iminent and lived their lives as such and Jesus himself tells believers to keep on the watch for him, the early Christians in no way put their lives on complete hold like the JW's do today. Also in mainstream churches people still make plans for the future, get educations, marry and have children and plan for retirement, etc. Actually the bible does not tell anyone to not live their lives to the fullest while awaiting Christ because we do not know when he will return. We are only told to "keep in expectation" of his return. And for believers that means living our life in accord with the principles we learned from Christ. Not living with fear and dread of his return!

  I just wanted to point that out because the WT and other groups like this keep the end of the age (not world) hanging over people constantly like Terry brought out and this view is completely wrong and you can see how some church leaders could use this as a control mechanism. For those more balanced Christians who do not believe Christ coming will result in a mass destruction of all non-Christians, but rather his return will be to restore all things, for all people, the anticipation of the Lord returning cannot be used as a control to keep us "in line" with certain beliefs. It is very sad really to now see the state of the JW's and realize I was once in that organization but am so glad to be free of the fear of the tyrant WT God and their version of a punishing, destroying Christ. Lilly
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  Narkissos

  Terry,

  We could as well say that the non-apocalyptical trends saved Christianity in the long run, when short-term expectations were no longer tenable. See the increasing shift from temporal (now/later) to spatial (up/down) categories in the Pauline and post-Pauline letters (especially Colossians-Ephesians) for instance. While orthodoxy appears as a negotiated compromise (with its eschatology postponed sine die, especially with Augustine), in the history of the church short-time eschatology keeps on coming back and forth as a sort of tide wave.

  lovelylil,

  I would nuance that picture: the wandering radicals in the Synoptic Gospels (those who leave everything to follow Jesus) make the WT pioneers appear pretty lukewarm.
• 

  lovelylil

  Narkissos,

  good point but they at least had the choice to give up all to follow Christ but in the WT org. you have no choice. They tell you do it or die! Notice no one was judged for not giving up all their possessions to follow Jesus in the first century but merely Christ told them that to be his close followers this would be necessary. They still were not forced. I'm thinking of the rich man who did not want to give up his riches and was grieved when Jesus told him to do so. I don't remember Jesus condeming him or telling him he will return to destroy him.The Christian message really is a personal one and we have to take it for what value it has in our lives, and live accordingly.

  The biggest thing I learned since leaving the org. is that there is simply no "one size fits all" model of what a Christian should be, should do or should believe in like the WT portrays. I'm sure we can both agree on that.

  Terry,

  You make some good points.

  Lilly
• 

  M.J.

  Interesting point, Narkissos, how Luke 21 refers to the "Gentile times" as the period starting with the fall of Jerusalem in 70AD, not 607 BCE .

  Looking at verse 20:

  When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near.

  it looks plain to me that the passage is talking about a future desolation of Jerusalem, not one that had already been in progress for some 600 years.

  In verse 24, when it says "Jerusalem will be trampled on" can the verb tense for will be:

  be used to indicate something that is currently in progress?
• 

  Narkissos

  MJ,

  estai is the future 3rd person singular of eimi, making the phrase estai patoumenè is a periphrastic passive future; if it has a nuance (over a simple passive future) beside the typically Lukan stylistic effect, it is that of future duration (it will be and remain trampled for some time -- until the "times of the nations" are fulfilled). But the "trampling" is clearly future from the perspective of the speaker (Jesus). Of course the syntax does not formally imply that the beginning of the "times of Gentiles" coincide with the beginning of the "trampling" but there is no indication that it doesn't.

  Interestingly this notion of the "times of Gentiles," following and resulting from Jerusalem's fall, loosely parallels the "seventy years" of Babylonian rule which (at least by the later interpretation of 2 Chronicles 36:20f) were thought to have followed Jerusalem's first fall.

  Lilly,

  As to the variety of expectations and requirements in the different segments of early Christianity, which were sometimes much higher than what the WT requires of its "full time ministers" and sometimes much lower than what it expects from its "rank & file," you might be interested in the following discussion: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/104861/1.ashx