Very intersting Proplog.
Didn't the disciples say "we have left everything".
Re the Mormons, don't they actually financially support the young missionary 'elders' when doing their two-year stint? I recall one of them telling me that they had all their accommodation and meals provided for? So local mormon churches actually provide a kind of communal financial support the young missionaries that serve in their area. Easy with 10% tithing though.
However, can you provide more evidence for the communalism that you say existed in the early church after Pentecost?
Watchtower never took preaching work seriously!!
by proplog2 33 Replies latest jw friends
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yaddayadda
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james_woods
From what I understand, the Mormons do support their missionaries, but mostly through sponsorship of the individual church they are from or from their own family if wealthy. They do not volunteer for this work, but are picked by mormon elders. I don't know what the specific penalty for declining is, but I doubt if it is disfelloshipping. Probably a slacker missionary just goes on the sh*tlist for about 10 years or so.
I am not sure I am ready to go along with the communal living thing as a preaching expedient...wasn't this more to escape persecution (i.e. like in the catacombs of Rome and such)? The NT fairly commonly lists the various professions of the characters, even Paul.
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Fleshybirdfodder
Great topic! So true! The last year I was in (3 years ago approximately) I heard from both from our C.O. and at the Circuit Assembly that "there is no reason to believe that we need to take Matthew 24:14 literally right down to the last individual." No word of a lie. I don't know if that was a local thing but I remember thinking WTF? (Though I wouldn't admit to thinking the F at the time cuz I was a good dubby ). Talk about elitism. I can't remember the topic but there were incredible posts on this board asking the question as to why the Witnesses haven't pushed to get into the mainstream media if they were really interested in making their message global. The most cogent explanation I read hypothesized that it is because they would be put under too much scrutiny, and I agree. They care about numbers, not saving people. Their recent record of changing hourly requirements for not only the elderly but also the pioneers and aux. pioneers shows how much they have sweated to show an "increase" in their ministry, as opposed to the reality of their "revolving door" membership.
FBF -
proplog2
Willy:
I looked up what Pat Robertsons Christian Broadcasting Network spends. $200 million dollars. If every publisher contributed $36.00 per year they could have their message beamed everywhere. Thirty-six dollars per year. Let's say that only 1 million JW's (those in the USA) could afford that much money. That would be $200 per publisher. At $8.00 per hour (Fast food chain wages) that would be 25 hours per year. JW's could STILL go out door knocking all they want AND have this powerful communications giant working for them. $200 is about half of what the average witness family spends on rooms and food at district conventions.
Has anyone told Jehovah about this? You know Moses had to intervene with Jehovah so he didn't kill off the Israelites in a fit of anger. Maybe no one made out a spread sheet and laid it out before Jehovah when he would be relaxed and receptive. Jehovah wouldn't even have to pay for it. All he has to do is make the GB "think" that's what he wants.
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Honesty
The excuse I've heard for the cd-rom content not being available on the internet: "the apostates would have easy access to it and would twist things". proplog2
I downloaded the entire 2005 WT Library on cd off the NET THANG so their argument doesn't hold any H2O
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proplog2
About communalism.
Acts: 4:32 Moreover the multitude of those who had believed had one heart and soul, and not even one would say that ANY of the things he possessed was his own; but they had all things in common. 34 In fact, there was not ONE in need among them; for all those who were possessors of fields or houses would sell them and bring the values of the things sold and the would deposit them at the feet of the apostles. In turn distribution would be made to each one just as he would have the need.
Some try to discount this as a special situation. But who knows how long it went on? Jesus shared a money box with his entourage. Paul bragged that he had the right to ask for financial support but that he supported himself so that no one could feel he was in any way a burden.
The new believers in Jerusalem thought Jesus' return was close. As time went on and Jesus didn't return it would have been hard to live that way. People had to hedge their bets.
But if JW's believe the end is 5 or 10 years away , REALLY BELIEVE, then you would expect extraordinary efforts to save lives. Communalism would be a small inconvenience for what it could accomplish.
It's kind of like the comment Schindler makes at the end of the move Schindler's List. Fondling his gold ring he laments how many Jews could he have saved if he would have sold his ring.
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Surfrusty
First of all. Do you really want it beamed everwhere???? There is alot of things to criticize but I find this one a bit weak.
First of all, your example of the christians after Pentecost is not directly applicable to this argument. They sold some of their property with the purpose to provide for the Jewish proselytes in Jerusalem at that time. There is no indication that this situation continued after they all went home. Neither is there any indication in the NT that the average christian had sold all of their belongings. Right or wrong I think they haven't used more modern forms spread the message because of an overly emphasizing the doorstep visits. Because of that, one it would seem could argue of the wisdom of that choice but hardly the effort put into it. -
proplog2
Surfrusty:
Needless to say the first century christians weren't anymore serious about their commission than are JW's. But there was a principle of sharing.
2 Corinthians 8:15 Just as it is written: "The person with much did not have too much, and the person with little did not have too little."
Another thing to think about is that a lot of people lived communally back then. Having your own house was a luxury. Extended families crowded into very tight quarters.
The western style of living in the USA and Europe is overly extravagant. There is a huge abundance that is wasted and justified by the idea that you dedicate your whole heart, mind and body BUT your money is ALL yours.
There are rich and poor at Bethel. Those with rich relatives had nice automobiles, clothes and party money. Those who lived off the allowance have their faith.
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JWdaughter
Mormons generally pay for their own missions. Some may have support from their local ward (congregation) but most do it on their own with money they earned in their youth and/or with family support.
They send in an application to get a calling and go wherever the church leadership calls them to go. I believe that the Missionary Training Center(several weeks-months)is paid for by the church, but I think they are resp. for their own living and travel expenses when they get to where they are serving their mission. I think that some people offer very inexpensive apartments but they are resp. to pay their rent. They buy their own food.
In different areas, missionaries are given meals-some are provided a great deal of meals(nearly all of them are donated by ward families), some occassionally get invited to someones house for dinner-and that's it. Depends on the people in the area they serve.
Young men are encouraged to serve missions, and some women do also. They apply, they are not called without an application. They are not forced to go on missions and are not disfellowshipped if they do not apply for a mission. The consequences of going on a mission is that they will never be an "RM" or returned missionary-which is the equivalent in LDS land of a single ministerial servant who went to Bethel in WT land. If they continue to be active in church, they will not really suffer any recriminations, other than not being able to relate missionary experiences-which can be quite legendary in LDS land.
These guys DO go full time, they get one day off (sorta-I have known some that work on Mondays if there is a need of some sort in the Ward), and have a fairly regimented schedule the rest of the week-from waking to bedtime. NOT rigid, but they do have things they need to accomplish every day-and trust me-coffee shops have no place in it!!:) They generally do not even go out to eat in restraunts. And of course, they don't drink coffee!
Some things are different somewhat in different areas, but missionaries have a job to do and they do it. They have to do everything but bathroom duty together. No one goes to a store alone. You will never find missionary partners farther away than a few bicycle lengths. They do not visit with the opposite sex w/o chaperones usually. NEVER alone.
The missions have varied (in my experience) from 18 mos to 2 years. Men usually go when they are 19, but some go later. Women can't apply til they are 21(last I knew) After the mission, the young men finish up college or start working or both.
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james_woods
Well, that is an interesting view on the missionary thing. The mormon guy I got this from said that almost all men were sort of expected to apply, and then the elders or whoever would pick who they wanted. I had it that the family or individual only had to pay if they were well able to do so, otherwise their own church would, very rarely did the main organization contribute. Or, I guess some rich family with no sons could help sponsor them.
There used to be a mormon political columnist (watergate era) named Drew Pearson (like the football player, but not him) who related how he was a budding journalist and tried to infiltrate a polygamy mormon cult on his own to get a story. He related that he got caught by the regular Mormons, had a talking to from a senion elder, and mysteriously got called to go do his mission the very next day.
The quote on "very few persons contacted listen to the message, but it is still considered an important rite of passage for their young men" came from a Time Magazine cover article on the religion some years back.
James
Back on the subject here, though - I did not get the initial point: (maybe still not) - JWs do not take the preaching seriously because they don't give up all worldly goods, live in a commune maybe, and devote their whole lives. I respectfully disagree - I think they take it seriously enough, moreso than practically any other religion in a door-to-door sense - but the problem is that this really has little to do with actually making converts. It is more of a money & power trip for them, IMHO.