Two Classes?

by VanillaMocha73 26 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  VanillaMocha73

  So I am going through the Bible from a Christian perspective this time and then going back to the Reasoning book to figure out how on earth the JWs ever came up with the stuff they did. It is not like I am a n00bi3 - I was raised JW, pioneered, went to Pio School, studied diligently for years, zealous, etc.
  
  Where do they come up with the two classes - one going to heaven and one not? Here are the lines of reasoning I can find:

  • David did not go to heaven - Acts something. Except that the scripture is not even talking about David's destiny. It seems to have been taken completely out of context.
  • John the Baptizer was a great man, but not great in kingdom of heaven. Therefore, he must not be in heaven. However, that scripture seems to be way convoluted to me.
  • The scripture about two flocks - little flock and other sheep
  • The scripture that the great crowd are before the lamb and not on mount zion, therefore they must not be in same place.

  
  Those are the only lines of reasoning I could find. And I must say they do not make much sense. Am I just dense? Let me say that the Bible is in a whole new light now that I feel the New Testament applies to me. The old way of believing that the Greek Scriptures only applied to the anointed and that I was not saved until the 144,000 applied Christ's sacrifice for me made the Bible and God seem distant.
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  jwfacts

  You are not dense. The Bible never mentions a future earthly resurrection, it is heavenly. Also the two folds are to be one flock.

  “And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd - John 10:16

  As late as 1932 Rutherford still was positive the Great Crowd was heavenly. Vindication Volume 3 (1932) p.204 “… must be spirit creatures.” Rutherford created the perfect cult structure when he changed this and made the leaders and the followers. The Great Crowd are a lower caste. They:

  * Are not part of the New Covenant w79 11/15 p.24

  * Do not have Jesus as their mediator w79 11/15 pp.22-24

  * Most of the New Testament does not apply to them w74 6/15 p.376

  * Do not inherit the earth it-1 p.1201, w58 3/1 p.139

  * Are not Born again w96 7/1 p. 21

  * They are not part of the congregation of God it-1 p. 498

  * The spirit does not pray for them w92 9/15 p. 16

  For a detailed analysis see http://jwfacts.com/index_files/greatcrowd.htm
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  lovelylil

  There are NOT two classes of Christians, one heavenly and one earthly. All Christians will be in heaven. The WT links the term "little flock" of Luke chapter 12 to the number 144,000 in Revelation and try to limit the heavenly heirs to this number. However, the term "little flock" is referring to the Jewish believers only, NOT the full number of heavenly hiers of Christ (or the church). Nowhere does the bible link this term with the number 144,000 of Revelation, which many believe is symbolic only. (there are different theories about this)

  If the WT insists on taking the number 144,000 literally, they must take the description as literal too which means they are all male virgins and natural Jews.

  The "other sheep" are the Gentile believers and Christ said they would become one flock with one shepherd. If they are one flock they are all in the same pen - the heavenly one! You are correct that the great crowd of believers in in heaven. Paul also said there is no longer Jew or Greek for we are in one body. Christ's body is made up of natural Jews and gentiles.

  It was Rutherford who came up with the two classes of Christians which was a way for him to set up his heirarchy (governing body) over all believers. There is no scriptural support for any such arrangement. Lilly
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  Zico

  You're not dense. I have no idea how they came up with two classes, but it's definitely not in the bible!
  
  'The scripture that the great crowd are before the lamb and not on mount zion, therefore they must not be in same place.'
  
  Revelation 7:9:
  
  9 After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands.
  
  I like the way they say being the throne and lamb means they can't be in heaven, as those in heaven are around the throne and lamb, not before it, however, go forward JUST TWO verses:
  
  11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell upon their faces before the throne and worshiped God,
  
  The angels fell BEFORE the throne as well! Also compare Revelation 5:8:
  
  8 And when he took the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, having each one a harp and golden bowls that were full of incense, and the [incense] means the prayers of the holy ones.
  
  Again, the 24 elders, which the WT teaches is the same as the 144,000, falling BEFORE the lamb.
  
  And, then there's Revelation 19:1, the biggest evidence of all:
  
  1 After these things I heard what was as a loud voice of a great crowd in heaven.
  
  Where is the great crowd? You're not dense, whoever came up with the great crowd on Earth is certainly dense though.
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  hamsterbait

  There are two classes of Christians - however both are in Heaven according to Revelation.

  This is even recognized by the Church of Rome - there are the Saints, to whom the faithful can speak, requesting their prayers on their behalf. ( Much as a christian might ask a member of the church to pray for them. ) And there are the rank and file, who are faithful, not outstandingly so, but who get the same reward of heavenly life.

  The promises to the Jews of an earthly kingdom, ruled by the Messiah, have not been done away with by the death of Christ (Romans 11: 1 onwards) Rutherford grabbed scriptures from Isaiah and then twisted them to apply to the Witlesses. ( And then only when the growth mocked the 144 000 ONLY claim)

  There is an earthly class. They are all unconverted Jewry, and others who died with no faith in Christ.

  According to Gal 1:8 there was no good news of an earthly hope for christians.

  HB

  PS A sister of the annointed once told me that they were at first dismayed by the growth after WW 1. As there were only a few places left, some of the new ones might die and pip some of the others to their post. They actually started changing the times and locations of meetings to stop newly interested ones from doing this.!!!!!

  I suppose Da Judge had to find a wasy of keeping the money coming in from the Gofors.
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  unbaptized

  Hello,

  I just wanted to shed some light on your latest comment regarding the anointed class and the great crowd. If you examine the history and organization of the former nation of Israel in the Holy Scriptures there were certain offices that individuals held that Jehovah used to set them apart from the entire congregation. Everyone did not have the potential to become a King in Israel, Jehovah appointed them. Everyone did not have the right to become a prophet, Jehovah was the one who appointed them. All Jews did not qualify for the priesthood that Jehovah had established through Moses and Aaron, Jehovah had appointed Moses and Aaron to their positions. Well since we know this information from the scriptures and we know that Jehovah is the same as long ago and never changes, then it is safe to assume that he has set aside a Holy priesthood for our benefit to act in service to us. They are going to Heaven to work for us, not us work for them. It isn't because their better than us, Jehovah just chose whom he wanted too choose. Look what happened to Korah the Kohathite who had a position in Jehovah's arrangement and lost his life because he felt that he should be the High priest. Numbers 16:9-11. A similar thing happened to Moses sister Miriam who because of her presumptuousness spoke against Moses, Jehovah's anointed and she was then struck by leprosy.Numbers 12:1-15.

  In closing I feel that we should focus on doing his will than debating about the two flocks of sheep. Remember, no matter what flock you think you belong too, Jehovah and Jesus does the choosing.
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  lovelylil

  I don't believe the 144,000 is the limit of heavely heirs. For the great crowd is there too. But I can see that this number is probably representative of the Jewish part of the church. It is the great crowd that are from "every tribe, people and tongue" this is a contrast to the 144,000 who are natural Jews. They are the ones who are "first fruits" and will be Kings on thrones judging the world. I do think the Gentiles will be appointed for another purpose. (possibly a priestly type duty, for they are in the temple serving God) though they have heavenly life, (eternal life) - they are not the first fruits to God as the natural Jews. We are all one flock with Jesus as the shepherd though and therefore are in the same pen.

  About the term "saints" I thought that meant all those baptized with Holy Spirit (anointed), but if the term applies to the Jewish believers only, I have no problem with that. I did notice in the NT there is a bride, and then there are those invited to the marriage feast. (not of bride class). So this could be representative of "two types" of believers in Christ. Not "two classes" of Christians. For as far as I understand the scriptures, the Holy Ones or Saints will judge the rest of the world, not the other members in Christ's body. Therefore they are not in a class above the rest of the body of Christ the way the WT teaches. Hope this makes sense??

  The important thing as someone already pointed out is that we are Believers in Christ and not what our final "position" will be in heaven. I'll just be happy if I make it there! Lilly
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  zack

  There is no explicit promise of a resurrection anywhere in the OT. The OT prophecies point to a restoration of Israel, the descendants of Abraham "through who all the nations would be blessed." The Jews inferred from this that a resurrection (a standing up again) was necessary in order for such a restoration to take place.

  Lazarus' sister said to Jesus that her brother would be resurrected "on the last day." This is not something stated in the OT. Solomon advises that anything a man finds to do, then do! because there is nothing in Sheol, THE PLACE TO WHERE YOU ARE GOING.

  If the Jews had beleived in a paradise earth then it would not have been NEWS! And Christ came with GOOD NEWS! He brought mankind something NEW not something already promised and anticipated. This new thing was everlasting life in heaven with HIM, the Christ.

  And I do not think that a discussion of this is a debate. The Watchtower dogmatically states a doctrine that is unbiblical. How can one worship the Father in Spirit and in Truth when the doctrine is NOT the Truth? Regardless of the intention of the doctrine, the practical effect is to DENY beleivers their rightful hope.

  Zack---------
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  lovelylil

  Zack,

  You make some good points. The WT confiscated all the prophecies regarding the fleshly Jewish nation and applies it to themselves. The promises of the restoration of Isreal are used by the WT to try and prove the paradise on earth teaching, which like you said, is NOT a hope held out for anyone.

  What God will do with the earth later on we really do not know. But Isreal (the actual land of and the people) will be restored and all Christians will recieve a heavenly reward.

  One point though - Daniel did fortell a mass resurrection (some to life, some to judgement or contempt) Daniel 12:2, the time period being the end times or the "last day". It says here: "multitudes who sleep in the dust will awake", this is a resurrection reference. Peace, Lilly
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  zack

  Thanks Lilly.