Musing over What is Karma, Rebirths, and the Illusions of the Senses (page 3)

zensim

Thanks Narkissos. Can you expand on your last paragraph - I want to understand more clearly?

Re capitalisation: Are you saying that it is the human tendency to make something more than what it is? That when we are experiencing something, our mind says this is either not enough or too much. I know I often don't just feeling what I am feeling - there is a wanting to weigh it up, of interpreting it from different angles, of trying to see where it fits into the scheme of things, of wondering how others would perceive it (and judge it as right or wrong). Can we just rest in this that is?

Narkissos

St. Paul(Hebrews actually) states that faith is ‘the conviction of things not seen’. And in fact, faith gives us access to an unknown world that is infinitely vast, where we begin to breathe, to nourish ourselves and to gain strength. Little by little, realms once foreign to us become familiar, and as a result we know. This is why we must not set faith and knowledge against each other, since the two go together: faith opens the way to newknowledge. Faith is the infinite, and within this infinity, knowledge carves out a small territory. It is our faith which probes the infinite and makes us penetrate ever further. Our knowledge of the divine world thus grows, thanks to our faith. Faith always precedes knowledge. In order to know, we must first believe, and once we know, we no longer believe: faith carries us towards something we do not yet know. Once we know, we no longer need to believe, because we are beyond belief. This is how, little by little, we arrive at perfect understanding."

When I speak of imaginary capitalisation I mean the implicit assumption that there is, really, truly, objectively, "out there," a divine world, or dimension, or realm, or territory, which can be visited, known or even inhabited somehow.

To me this is a very natural -- almost unavoidable perthaps -- but fatal perversion of mysticism. And it easily turns "cultish" -- as there seems to be something to "sell" in that other world (on Aivanhov and the "White Brotherhood" cf. http://www.icsahome.com/infoserv_bookreviews/bkrev_holymadnessandmysteryoflight.htm for instance).

I don't believe in another world -- not that I can disprove it; rather, because it would still be a world, a reality, from which I (and any "subject") would have to differ, in order to exist. One world to undo is enough imo.

zensim

Ha - I just read this:

Imagine a world in which generations of human beings come to believe that certain films were made by God or that specific software was coded by him. Imagine a future in which millions of our descendants murder each other over rival interpretations of Star Wars or Windows 98. Could anything -- anything -- be more ridiculous? And yet, this would be no more ridiculous than the world we are living in. -Sam Harris, author (1967- )

And then here you are talking about 'another world'.

To me this is a very natural -- almost unavoidable perthaps -- but fatal perversion of mysticism.
And it easily turns "cultish" -- as there seems to be something to "sell" in that other world

Yes, that has concerned me at times. I am going to ponder some more on what you are saying.

As for Aivanhov - I can't say I know an awful lot about him - I just liked that quote for some reason.

I will check out the link - thanks

Gill

From being a child, even a child in the WTBTS cult, I knew, I just knew there was 'more'.

Most of my young childhood I woke every morning crying knowing that I didn't belong with these people, (my parents) and I had lost someone or something wonderful. I think I was grieving. I met my husband at age six and knew I had 'found' someone I belonged with. I knew it would all be all right again. And sure enough, it was 'all right' and my grief started to disappear.

The WTBTS doctrines had me weeping again actually believing that one day, because we were no longer JWs, we would NEVER see eachother again. Now that I know the WTBTS doctrines are BS, and have begun to research such things as Karma, rebirths etc I have no more fear and I feel and I feel I know, that it will all be all right again.

There is no more fear of death. I know we will go on, and I know we will all be together again.

I CAN'T PROVE IT! But I 'feel' it.

I 'felt it' when certain close relatives died. I knew.

When I saw their bodies, they were empty shells. They were 'gone'. But I don't think they ceased to exist. When I saw them, I knew peace and though I sorely missed them, I knew they were all right.

Well...so now you all think I'm a freak! Oh well! BUT....somethings are 'felt' and when they repeatedly turn out to be right....you know there is an unexplained 'moreness' to life.

Living is wonderful when you're happy and with your loved ones! But death is inevitable, of the body at least. We are far more than we can imagine.....and think of the fun of finding out that we go on and on, and don't have to be Watchtower slaves to do that!

Navigator

Here is a poem by Ella Wilcox who was the author of so many favorite Christian Hymns.

God and I in Space Alone God and I in space alone and nobody else in view…
"And where are the people, oh Lord," I asked, "The earth beneath, the skies overhead and the dead whom I once knew?" "Nay those were but dreams," God smiled and said,
"Dreams that have ceased to be true. There were no people living or dead - there was only myself and you." "And why do I feel no fear," I asked,
"Seeing You here this way?
For I have sinned I know full well . . . And is there a heaven and is there a hell?
And is this the judgment day??" "Nay, those were but dreams," the great God smiled, "Dreams that have ceased to be. For there were no such things as fear and sin - And you - yourself, you have never been For there is NOTHING AT ALL BUT ME!!!!." by - Ella Wheeler Wilcox

zensim

Gill - I know what you are saying. I do believe some things need to be experienced and felt. To others, when you explain your experience, it sounds weird, or occultish or delusional. And yet I find that it is my mind that tends to delude, whereas my feelings are more true.

I try and follow my intuition more these days and I listen to my mind, body and emotions in unison. In the past (particularly as a jw) I tended to only listen with my head.

In my experience, nearly everybody has the feeling that something elusive is "calling them home", which is why we all so desperately want to find someone, or some group, to fit with - because we don't like that feeling of not belonging. I still don't know what this dance is between feeling there is something else - beyond us - and the feeling that we need to give the here and now greater meaning.

There is an inner knowing in all of us and I think our lives run more smoothly and are happier when we each listen to our own inner truth and inner knowing - as conflicting or intangible as it sometimes is.

I don't tend to talk about my experiences very much - what I sometimes experience is barely translatable into words. And I see the results of all the different teachers who have tried to explain their experiences, in the belief that it will help others, only to see their words twisted, manipulated, misunderstood, scorned, doubted, abused, limited, exaggerated. And sceptics have their truth too when they see all these occuring.

I have no desire to control or develop 'psychic' abilities - but when they occasionally spontaneously happen I am grateful for the unique experience. Just as I am grateful when I have other unexpected delights - an amazing sunset on a normal visit to the beach with the kids or reading a book in the country and a vibrant blue wren landing next to me, trilling beautifully. Life is a gift and I appreciate each moment, whether I understand it (or think I understand ) or am in complete mystery.

I do believe everything is cyclical - we are born, we grow older, we die. And as such, I believe some essence of me will be born again. I don't really care anymore whether my consciousnes is attached to that essence. To be attached to the idea that I want my consciousness or being to live on would mean that I am still struggling with the pain I experience - wanting - hoping - to never need experience this pain again. I have made my peace with pain and fear - because joy and love are what sustain me.

Narkissos

I like your approach zensim

frankiespeakin

Narc,

Imho: as far back as we can look "nature" and "culture" (including stories and history) are interwoven beyond separation; the human mind, artificial and negative as it may be, has been continuously transforming "reality," for the better and the worse. Breaking with any cultural or mental construct (ideas, beliefs, etc.) is yet one further act of negation opening up "reality" to further creation -- again and again, for the better and the worse. To us there is simply no way back upstream of culture/mind.

Sorta like " transcend and include" rather than "transcend and disguard" which is the way I see evolution going about it, and seems to be that way both with the physical structure of the brain and the thinking and/or consciouness developement as well..

To me this complicates the subjective equation into:

A. You are that.B. You are not that.C. You are the both painful and joyful, ever-opening, difference between A and B (aka consciousness).

D. You are the sun shining and the earth you walk apon.

E. You are all that your eyes can see, and all that you can experience.

Rinse in daily unconsciousness and repeat from a new perspective with every further realisation down the path of becoming.

Is this the same thing basically? A new world view changing every micro second base on past experiences stored in the unconscious never completed but always evolving.

frankiespeakin

Holographic universe http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4232897377629019446&q=holographic+universe&hl=en

First 20 minute good then it gets biased.

Musing over What is Karma, Rebirths, and the Illusions of the Senses

Share this