by Amazing 63 Replies latest jw friends
What I can't understand about God is how is he causing any real difference in humanity? Do we just have to wait and see what the effect of Christ on earth will be? After all it's been 2000 years and nothing has happened, and he said he would come soon. Is all this faith and hope just a pipe dream?
Ken P.
Hi Ken,
What I can't understand about God is how is he causing any real difference in humanity? Do we just have to wait and see what the effect of Christ on earth will be? After all it's been 2000 years and nothing has happened, and he said he would come soon. Is all this faith and hope just a pipe dream?
Catholics do not look for God to solve the world's problems as the JWs do. Catholics, Protestants, and Orthodox find the difference that Christ makes is in their daily lives until they go home to heaven. If that benefits the world, that is good ... and if it does not, that is okay too. One day, God is supposed to bring an end to the world, but not to establish a paradise earth. Catholics do not focus on the end of the world. It is not within any concern of their faith.
Christ did return soon as far as his acting on the Church after his ascension to heaven at Pentecost ... he had been with the Church ever since as he promised. faith and hope are now ... along with love, these three are the substance of the fruit of the Holy Spirit, the Gifts of the Holy Spirit. Contentment with what is a staple of the Christian life, and there is no need to worry about something "happening." It is the JWs who planted the idea that we have to be haing something going on, some divine plan outworking toward Armageddon that is soon, right around the corner ... keeping the JWs constantly on edge. We see the fruit of there teaching in the 2 million ex-JWs who finally left, and in the stream of ex-JWs continuing to pour out of their religion. We see the hurt, the disappointment, and devestation in some cases, and the many who have been puched away from God and Christ because of thier intense program of priming the pump with constant expectation. The beauty of being a Christian without all of that is contentment, peace, and satisfaction with life as it is lived today.
Jim Whitney
Lovelylil, I did read and understand all of what u said, my question is to do with - where do non christians fit in the chrisitan worldview?
Fantastic testimony Jim, It's great that you've found your peace
I beg to differ on your reply to Lilly, perhaps the reaction is different in various countries, regions or even depending on the parish priests pov:
Catholics do not have to accept everything the Church teaches. It is preferred if they do ... but you will not hear of a Catholic being booted or being refused communion for disagreeing with the Church.
I was told in no uncertain terms accept it all or accept nothing, the priest wasn't even willing to discuss my issues.
So I left.
Then came the shunning by my eldest sister for 'betraying the faith' (and the family roots)
I can't go back to the RC church now but I have made my peace with them. I had a phase of being angry about what happened and denied any possibility that you could be RC and a Christian - but that ill feeling has healed now, yep, we're brothers and sisters in Christ
Hi Jim,
That is the best explaination I've heard yet for that question but it doesn't explain the bible's comments about a new earth. There was promised a new earth where there was no more sickness, death or evil. Even the lions would eat straw like the ox. If all christains are going to heaven what is the purpose for a new earth? If all born again christains are going to be changed in the twinklin of an eye, who are the ones waiting for a resurrection, some to life and some to judgment? There are too many ideas presented in the bible to get God's real plan. What is Christ Kingdom about with christains being a bride and rulling over whom? Are they rulling over the earth or some other group of spirits? The bible seems to be a bunch of ideas with out a real explaination. There are too many contridictory explainations of the Christain bible. Evidently the Holy Spirit doesn't know either, since it doesn't explain it all to it's followers.
Ken P.
emo,
The same thing happened to me in the RC Church and in some ways I find them similiar to the Witnesses. They believe only they have the truth and I was taught as a young child that God's Kingdom will be realized on earth once all of mankind became a Catholic. We cannot just gloss over the RC past history of killing people who did not want to join thier church. They did so because they believe God gave them the authority to do so.
I went on the Vatican website this morning to see if like Jim says, you now do not have to agree with all their teachings and found that they are just as narrow minded as I remember. Probably they put up with some who do not agree with them as long as you are not outspoken about it. They still believe the Pope was given all authority in heaven to excercise on earth. This is very scary as we know when mere humans think they are on the same level as God.
Bernadetter,
While this topic was not set up to address your specific Q. The answer is God has a plan for everyone in this world. The NT says he is currently taking out a people for his son's name; Christians - and then Christ will come to restore all things. I believe every person in the world will eventually have the opportunity to be reconciled back to God. Lilly
Ken,
The problem with the Bible is that too many people have made too many interpretations. The Catholic and Orthodox have pretty much held to one interpretation for 2,000 years. However, as I explained in my initiating post, the two great Churches also hold to tradition as passed down from the Apostles. The Bible even refers to this tradition. This is why they even continue the ancient dress in rituals. The Bible is not the center of the universe for Catholics and Orthodox ... though the Catholic Church caused the NT to be compiled in the late 4th century, and it was not declared "inspired" by the Catholic Church for hundreds of years thereafter ... and it was not available to the general public until the 15th century. The Catholic Church together with the Orthodox are the first and only ones to decide that the Bible was inspired. Protestants merely followed suit, and then built their own interpretations apart from the Church. So, all of the "new earth" commentary in the Bible is considered symbolic as I recall.
Lovelylil,
I went on the Vatican website this morning to see if like Jim says, you now do not have to agree with all their teachings and found that they are just as narrow minded as I remember. Probably they put up with some who do not agree with them as long as you are not outspoken about it. They still believe the Pope was given all authority in heaven to excercise on earth. This is very scary as we know when mere humans think they are on the same level as God.
How are Catholics or more specific the Church narrow-minded? One of the attractions to me is the openess and disversity in the Church, which is one of the reasons for being called "universal." Yes, the Church still holds to Papal infallibility. I believe that the Church is wrong on this issue as do the Orthodox. Rome recognizes the Orthodox as a legitimate half of the Church. Therefore, Rome has an issue to resolve with this position, and knows it. Fortunately, infallibility has only been applied twice in Church history. The doctrine was not officially established until 1870, and historically was rejected by prior Popes. I believe that they will overturn it.
Jim Whitney
I believe every person in the world will eventually have the opportunity to be reconciled back to God. Lilly
From what I see in the USA it's going to take a lot of reconciling for the young people to get back to God. Drugs and sex are about the only things they can think about and it's ruining the lives of my grandkids and wife's nephews and most of their friends. What happened to morality???
Ken P.
Hi Jim,
I'll try to explain better:
The "Church" according to the Bible (ecclesia was the term used) are the people united in faith in Christ and with the Holy Spirit dwelling in them. You do not have to be called by any denominational name like Catholic, Orthodox, Baptist, etc. the name Christians is really the only name given to Christ's followers. All these Christian religions have set up sects which abide by rules, teachings and traditions that are unique to them and must be accepted before you can join them. The RC is no exception.
While the Catholic Mother Church says she is accepting of all Christians worldwide, she really is not. Since it teaches that the RC alone is the only true church having any authority of Christ's followers. Her hope is to bring all the other christians worldwide under her one system. The term Catholic today is not used as just meaning universal. It is used a a name of a denomination. And while they baptise infants, you have to be confirmed into the church later on. And you can only do this by accepting all thier teachings.
how else are they narrow minded?
This church system teaches that all authority in the church, which means over all believers in Christ, was given to Peter alone by Christ (a misunderstanding of scripture) and thus he passed it along to every other Pope after him. And that by this authority whatever the Pope determins to do on earth, his decision will be bound in heaven. Even at 12 I realized how scary a thought this is.This belief was the catalyst for the Papal infallibility. While you may disagree with that teaching, the majority of the RC do not disagree because this is what the RC teaches. And I would like to know what would happen to you if you went up agianst the RC by being vocal about your opinions about this?
btw: only Christ and no man has the authority over his church (body of believers). And the view of the RC that the Pope is really Christ on earth, or subsitutes for Christ would have been a heresy in the Apostle's day.
This church also teaches that God's kingdom will be realized on earth when everyone because a Catholic. Meaning adhering to their faith and all thier beliefs and practices. That sounds pretty narrow minded to me.
That being said: you are free to join any church system you want to. If you feel you made the right decision for you, then stay in that decision. As for me, I prefer to stay out of the church systems and adher to Christ's words and teachings alone. And Like I said, I consider you a Christian brother of mine. But not because you are known as a Catholic, but because of your faith in Christ and bapism by the Holy Spirit. We can just disagree about these other minor issues.
peace, Lilly
Thanks lovelyLil,
I feel the same on the matter.
Amazing : The problem with the Bible is that too many people have made too manyinterpretations
It's not really about interpretation ... it is about agreement on what is the most important (Charity including forgiveness against Ego) towards others. That's how things gets revealed if we agree (even if we are sinners) with the matter itself and then the message becomes clear.
Matthew 1:25 At that time Jesus said, "I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants.
(So it's not about being smart on the matter) The reason why I'm saying that it is all about how you feel about others (Charity including forgiveness against Ego) is about spiritual humility (the little one can be the bigest ones) - For instance (and that's only one example on millions but a biblical example) JW's focused on God and can only see Christ as its son. Also you can focused on the Pope when the Pope has nothing to prove he is whatever.
The first will be the last, The tyniest will be the greatest ... It talks alot !!!
Any leader in this matter is only supposed to lead to the Word/Jesus/The Lord ... they are not supposed to be our Leaders spiritually, and the church/Assembly is spiritual (it's said : Christ is the temple)
Peter being the chosen one is quiet weird if you really think about it ... and that talks alot too : he is the one who cut the soldier's hear (he does not take the time to think christianlike) / he is the one who diswow Christ 3 times by fear (in knowing that Christ I've told him just before) later he is the one to whom Paul had to say WTF are you doing? (Galate 2) because hiding his ways and misleading on the real rules which would not allow to understand things have change since nothing is really a sin only wanting to be bad and hurting others(in a way or another) is (if you have no regrets about that) ... You can't just believe any Leader on this matter but Christ.
Now put this facts (regarding Peter) with Jesus asking to Peter 3 times " do you love me" it's not for the style, not even to get his answer ... it's to tell US ... What really matters is that you love me - the Word (its wisdom related to charity including forgiveness against Ego). In this message he is talking to us and it means ... any leader who don't just lead to me (the real meaning of the Word) is working for himself
also Roman 9:15-16
15. For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION." 16. So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
Since our Ego is willing a bit too much ... its like saying : I deverve. But do we really know what we deserve? And what will we be able to do to deserve if we do not take care of what is really important?) that's how JW's in being sinceres gets somehow crazy about it.
Being Christian is not a matter of being in any religion (Christ said to the Jew and to resume the matter : listen to the Pharisees / and check you'll see how wrong they are - cause they ain't gowing nowhere their ways) He didn't say and didn't have have to say ; change your religion (it's not important).
We look a bit too much about the BIG ONES / Those who's got a name, who are recognise (by humans) ... but who are they for real (how will we know - are they important to us anyway NO not more than any of our brothers.
