Faith in God and the Church - Part 2 of 2 The Catholic Faith

by Amazing 63 Replies latest jw friends

  • NanaR
    NanaR

    Amazing,

    I hope you don't mind my commenting here:

    With regard to Catholic Church tolerance (or lack thereof), notice this section of Chapter 1 of Crisis of Conscience (this chapter is found online at http://www.commentarypress.com/eng-crisis-ch1.html ):

    The examples of three men—each a religious instructor of note in his particular religion, with each situation coming to a culmination in the same year—illustrate this:

    One, for more than a decade, wrote books and regularly gave lectures presenting views that struck at the very heart of the authority structure of his religion.

    Another gave a talk before an audience of more than a thousand persons in which he took issue with his religious organization’s teachings about a key date and its significance in fulfillment of Bible prophecy.

    The third made no such public pronouncements. His only expressions of difference of viewpoint were confined to personal conversations with close friends.
    Yet the strictness of the official action taken toward each of these men by their respective religious organizations was in inverse proportion to the seriousness of their actions. And the source of the greatest severity was the opposite of what one might expect.

    The first person described is Roman Catholic priest Hans Küng, professor at Tübingen University in West Germany. After ten years, his outspoken criticism, including his rejection of the doctrinal infallibility of the Pope and councils of bishops, was finally dealt with by the Vatican itself and, as of 1980, the Vatican removed his official status as a Catholic theologian. Yet he remains a priest and a leading figure in the university’s ecumenical research institute. Even students for the priesthood attending his lectures are not subject to church discipline.(They simply receive no academic credit for such attendance.)

    The second is Australian-born Seventh Day Adventist professor Desmond Ford. His speech to a layman’s group of a thousand persons at a California college, in which he took issue with the Adventist teaching about the date 1844, led to a church hearing. Ford was granted six months leave of absence to prepare his defense and, in 1980, was then met with by a hundred church representatives who spent some fifty hours hearing his testimony. Church officials then decided to remove him from his teaching post and strip him of his ministerial status. But he was not disfellowshiped (excommunicated) though he has published his views and continues to speak about them in Adventist circles.

    The third man is Edward Dunlap, who was for many years the Registrar of the sole missionary school of Jehovah’s Witnesses, the Watchtower Bible School of Gilead, also a major contributor to the organization’s Bible dictionary (Aid to Bible Understanding [now titled Insight on the Scriptures]) and the writer of its only Bible commentary (Commentary on the Letter of James). He expressed his difference of viewpoint on certain teachings only in private conversation with friends of long standing. In the spring of 1980, a committee of five men, none of them members of the organization’s Governing Body, met with him in secret session for a few hours, interrogating him on his views. After over forty years of association, Dunlap was dismissed from his work and home at the international headquarters and disfellowshiped from the organization.

    Thus, the religious organization that, for many, has long been a symbol of extreme authoritarianism showed the greatest degree of tolerance toward its dissident instructor; the organization that has taken particular pride in its fight for freedom of conscience showed the least.

    Note that Hans King WAS NOT excommunicated from the Catholic Church; he was not even silenced. He was removed from a position of speaking FOR the Church regarding Church doctrine, but other Catholics are still allowed, with no penalties, to listen to him. He is still a PRIEST as well.

    I am getting ready to go into RCIA. I have had a great many discussions with one of the RCIA teachers regarding the subject of Catholic tolerance of diverse beliefs (I have a certain difficulty with the concept of eternal torment but no problem with the concept of eternal destruction or eternal separation from God). I have been told by this teacher that entrance into the Catholic Church is dependent upon acceptance of the Nicean Creed ( http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11049a.htm ):

    We believe (I believe) in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, and born of the Father before all ages. (God of God) light of light, true God of true God. Begotten not made, consubstantial to the Father, by whom all things were made. Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven. And was incarnate of the Holy Ghost and of the Virgin Mary and was made man; was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, suffered and was buried; and the third day rose again according to the Scriptures. And ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of the Father, and shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead, of whose Kingdom there shall be no end. And (I believe) in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father (and the Son), who together with the Father and the Son is to be adored and glorified, who spoke by the Prophets. And one holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. We confess (I confess) one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for (I look for) the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen."

    So I expect that someone who does not truly believe in the Trinity, or who does not believe that Jesus was God in the Flesh, would not be accepted as a member of the Catholic Church. Also I expect that belief in the virginity of Mary as the Mother of God would be necessary.

    She told me, however, that many new converts have difficulty with one or more Catholic teachings (the example she used was Transubstantiation, not because I had mentioned it but because someone in a recent RCIA class had mentioned it). She said that all Catholics grow in their knowledge and understanding of Church doctrine as they mature as Christians, and that the oridinary Christian is not expected to be a Theologan.

    My friend also has frequent discussions with another lady she works with. This other lady is a devout and practicing Catholic, but she is wishy-washy with regard to the role of the Magesterium and has difficulty with the concept of papal infallibility. These views do not inhibit her Catholic worship or her standing as a Catholic, and my friend does not view her any differently just because they disagree on this point of Church doctrine.

    My husband left the Catholic Church in 1972. He also very forcefully insists that the Catholic Church is much more arbitrary and authoritarian than I have found it to be. His experience with taking his questions to the parish priests was about as bad as that recounted above by Amazing. He has been inactive with the Witnesses for as long as I have, but contends he is still "going back" to the Kingdom Hall and that he would never return to the Catholic Church (he is a "cradle Catholic" who was baptized, confirmed, and graduated from a Catholic High School). When he was attending Mass, it was conducted in Latin. He is astonished and greatly troubled by my decision to investigate the Catholic Church.

    It seems to me that the Church went through some difficulties in the last half of the 20th Century. There were some infamous disagreements regarding the catechism during that time. These difficulties may have simply been a reaction to the spirit of revolution and of protest that was so prevalent during the 60s and 70s. I really don't know, as I was a firmly entrenched "cradle JW" during those years.

    I am finding the Catholic Church to be a very welcoming environment with patient and loving teachers who attempt to answer all questions that I might raise.

    Ruth

  • lovelylil
    lovelylil

    Nana,

    He was not excomunicated from the church but was removed as an official teacher for the church. Other Catholics could still attend his classes but recieved NO CREDIT. Notice how he was restricted by the Church? Now, this is stated in your own information you provided. So can you really say you are not at least pressured into sticking to the church's official doctrines? Lilly

    RAF,

    Good points!

  • bernadette
    bernadette

    lovelylil

    While this topic was not set up to address your specific Q. The answer is God has a plan for everyone in this world. The NT says he is currently taking out a people for his son's name; Christians - and then Christ will come to restore all things. I believe every person in the world will eventually have the opportunity to be reconciled back to God. Lilly

    I understood that Amazing was describing his spiritual journey back to Catholicism, and from what I've been reading Catholicism itself is experiencing an ongoing journey particularly with respect to intersprirtuality. They are exploring Taoism, Hinduism and Buddhism to name but a few. It seems that their desire is to integrate eastern insights with catholicism.

    Amazing

    I was wondering how you feel about this sort of interspirituality in your journey.

    (excuse me if you have already addressed this issue - I don't have the time at present to read what everyone has said on this thread. Hope to this evening)

  • NanaR
    NanaR
    He was not excomunicated from the church but was removed as an official teacher for the church. Other Catholics could still attend his classes but recieved NO CREDIT. Notice how he was restricted by the Church? Now, this is stated in your own information you provided. So can you really say you are not at least pressured into sticking to the church's official doctrines? Lilly

    He was a Theologian. I am not, nor will I be if/when I become a Catholic. So, no, the ordinary Catholic is NOT pressured into sticking to the church's official doctrines.

    We disagree, Lilly, and that's okay. I'm most comfortable learning doctrines that have been handed down from the days of the apostles, especially after leaving the Witnesses. I was absolutely astonished to find my faith inside of a Catholic Church, but that is exactly where I found it.

    This is Jim's thread, so I'm done now.

    Ruth

  • lovelylil
    lovelylil

    Nana,

    I see your point. He was a theologian so was in the position of teaching the Church's official doctrines to its members. If you are saying that the Church today allows for differences of opinion among its lay members than I will have to go by what you are telling me. Becuase I am no longer a member so I don't have the inside view. If this is true, then it certainly is a different church than when I was a girl. Lilly

  • RAF
    RAF

    Finally this shows something ... as soon as we focus on something/someone else than Christ (and all what he means) regarding to the bible ... we got lots on the matter.

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    The Catholic church is a big house and there is simply no way to control everyone's thinking (or even teaching). Control appears only when one particular trend becomes popular -- mostly through media coverage. Otherwise you can find very liberal and very conservative stances at all levels of the hierarchy -- from the parish priests to the cardinals and theologians -- provided no extreme view becomes too visible.

    I was in a Catholic boardschool just in the wake of Vatican II. We could feel the change in many ways -- in particular, the daily Mass suddenly became optional, and the Latin part dropped dramatically; in religious education we were introduced to Bible criticism -- all that just before I became a JW!

    After the JW episode I went a Protestant path, but I had the opportunity to work with very open Catholic scholars on Bible projects. Still, when I happen to attend a Catholic service in any Church I can still hear echoes of the most obscurantist 19th-century Catholicism sometimes. But there are some liturgies in some particular churches I very much enjoy. Catholicism is diverse, by necessity rather than by virtue I think -- but is it not the case of all diversity, including that of early Christianity?

  • Terry
    Terry

    We've all heard about this fellow named Jesus. It is almost the only thing we've heard, seems to me.

    But, there is nothing written about him in all the Roman annals and the Romans were fastidious bureaucrats and recordkeepers.

    We are told the deeds he did would fill a scroll so large the world itself could not contain the accounting. Yet, there is not a single existing scroll that is orginal to Jesus' time and place. We don't even have copies of originals. We have copies of copies of.......well, you get the point.

    You have the religion that Jesus loved and served, Judaism; it doesn't recognize him as anybody other than one of a great many wise rabbis.

    You have the opinions of men who came after him, such as Saul/Paul who claim to know everything Jesus REALLY said and meant who wrested Jesus away from Judaism and gave us Christianity.

    Then, you have the Church.

    The Church began with the powerful arm of an emperor supporting a campaign of orthodoxy and enforced strictures on what could be acceptable thought and writings on this fellow Jesus.

    Those who disagreed were driven away and their writings mocked and burned. Many with differing opinions from the Chruch were physically injured and declared Satanic and their prospect for being loved by God annulled by official pronouncements.

    Freedom of thought was stifled.

    The era of the Church holding sway over the Earth has another offical name: THE DARK AGES.

    The Church had scoundrels, pretenders and non-existent saints along with its geniuses and architects.

    The past, so it is said, is a map of what the future will be.

    The past demonstrates that THE CHURCH never wavered in hunger to force others to bend to its will.

    Women, men, children and animals have been broken on the shredding edge of Church authority.

    Church officials dress in finery and their buildings groan under gold, silver and artistic lavishness while the poor who light candles beseeching mercy from a silent god go hungry and suffer in silence.

    Children by the scores succumb to the nasty concupiscence of men called "Father" who aren't allowed to marry or actually have children of their own. The guilty men are hidden and public lies hide the filthy skirts of the Church which incubates these scoundrels.

    The Church steals the minds of youth and implants a seed of guilt so strong it is a timebomb which haunts their lives to the grave. They call this "faith".

    The New World was made fertile with the blood of native american "savages" who had to convert or bleed under the mighty weight of the Church bringing Jesus to the pagans.

    Old, rotting men don their pointy hats and croak official whispers that choke the identity and individuality out of nations of the ignorant and poor who believe they speak infallibly in the voice of God.

    The Pope's concordat with Adolph Hitler kept the Chruch silent as the Nazi brutality destroyed 6 million of Jesus' own flesh and blood family during WWII.

    This is the mighty arm of God that tore the flesh off any man who dared translate Holy Scripture so that the ordinary citizen could read the words of Jesus for themselves. Being burned at the stake was their reward.

    This Church has one long foul stench of a pattern that cries out to heaven in witness of their kinship to God.

    That is only one reason why I want no fellowship with either this Church of such a God as would grant them the power on Earth to wield such a fetid sword.

    I was reared by my grandparents. My grandmother was Catholic. She was in a convent school from a very early age. She vividly described to me what the Mother Superior and her cronies visited upon young girls by way of godly instruction and punishments. It left a precise messege on my heart and a scar on hers.

    I merely offer you my opinion. Your mileage may vary.

  • Midget-Sasquatch
    Midget-Sasquatch

    Just wanted to say I enjoyed Part Two, and I loved the excellent write-up in Part 1.

    Your expressions brought to my mind what Agrippa said to Paul at Acts 26:28. Take it as a compliment. And since I know you're not out to make converts, I'll assure you that I'm still the very cynical, hylic simian I've always been. Heretics can still appreciate the light side.

  • done4good
    done4good

    Interesting journey, Jim. Still working on mine.

    j

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