CONTINUED... from 9-18-2006 posts at thread entitled "episcopal religion" by Black Swan...
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QUOTE:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/120675/2131481/post.ashx#2131481
Episcopal news from the Prophecy News Watch newsletter of 6/21/06... 4 of these articles are about the Episcopal Church... this was still during the time the big shakeup/revelations were going on in the news about these churches.. /AG
Prophecy News Watch Update - June 21, 2006
Kade Hawkins
Prophecy News Watch
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Apostate Christianity in this issue:
* New US Episcopal church leader says homosexuality no sin
* Presbyterians Think Of Changing 'Father, Son, Holy Spirit'
* Episcopal Convention Condemns Bible as 'Anti-Jewish'
* Evangelism Low On Priority List For Episcopalians
* Episcopalians refuse affirmation of Christ as the only way to be saved
Apostate Christianity
New US church leader says homosexuality no sin
Newly elected leader of the U.S. Episcopal Church Bishop Katharine Jefferts Schori said on Monday she believed homosexuality was no sin and homosexuals were created by God to love people of the same gender.
Jefferts Schori, bishop of the Diocese of Nevada, was elected on Sunday as the first woman leader of the 2.3 million-member Episcopal Church. the U.S. branch of the worldwide Anglican Communion. She will formally take office later this year.
Interviewed on CNN, Jefferts Schori was asked if it was a sin to be homosexual.
"I don't believe so. I believe that God creates us with different gifts. Each one of us comes into this world with a different collection of things that challenge us and things that give us joy and allow us to bless the world around us," she said.
"Some people come into this world with affections ordered toward other people of the same gender and some people come into this world with affections directed at people of the other gender."
Jefferts Schori's election seemed certain to exacerbate splits within a Episcopal Church that is already deeply divided over homosexuality with several dioceses and parishes threatening to break away.
It could also widen divisions with other Anglican communities, including the Church of England, which do not allow women bishops.
In the worldwide Anglican church women are bishops only in Canada, the United States and New Zealand. The Robinson issue has been particularly criticized in Africa where the church has a growing membership and where homosexuality is often taboo.
Jefferts Schori, who was raised a Roman Catholic and graduated in marine biology with a doctorate specialization in squids and oysters, supported the consecration of Gene Robinson of New Hampshire, the first openly gay bishop in more than 450 years of Anglican history.
Asked how she reconciled her position on homosexuality with specific passages in the Bible declaring sexual relations between men an abomination, Jefferts Schori said the Bible was written in a very different historical context by people asking different questions.
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Presbyterians Think Of Changing 'Father, Son, Holy Spirit'
The divine Trinity -- "Father, Son and Holy Spirit" -- could also be known as "Mother, Child and Womb" or "Rock, Redeemer, Friend" at some Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) services under an action Monday by the church's national assembly.
Delegates to the meeting voted to "receive" a policy paper on gender-inclusive language for the Trinity, a step short of approving it. That means church officials can propose experimental liturgies with alternative phrasings for the Trinity, but congregations won't be required to use them.
"This does not alter the church's theological position, but provides an educational resource to enhance the spiritual life of our membership," legislative committee chair Nancy Olthoff, an Iowa laywoman, said during Monday's debate on the Trinity.
The assembly narrowly defeated a conservative bid to refer the paper back for further study.
A panel that worked on the issue since 2000 said the classical language for the Trinity should still be used, but added that Presbyterians also should seek "fresh ways to speak of the mystery of the triune God" to "expand the church's vocabulary of praise and wonder."
One reason is that language limited to the Father and Son "has been used to support the idea that God is male and that men are superior to women," the panel said.
Conservatives responded that the church should stick close to the way God is named in the Bible and noted that Jesus' most famous prayer was addressed to "Our Father."
Besides "Mother, Child and Womb" and "Rock, Redeemer, Friend," proposed Trinity options drawn from biblical material include:
- "Lover, Beloved, Love"
- "Creator, Savior, Sanctifier"
- "King of Glory, Prince of Peace, Spirit of Love."
Early in Monday's business session, the Presbyterian assembly sang a revised version of a familiar doxology, "Praise God from whom all blessings flow" that avoided male nouns and pronouns for God.
Youth delegate Dorothy Hill, a student at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary in Massachusetts, was uncomfortable with changing the Trinity wording. She said the paper "suggests viewpoints that seem to be in tension with what our church has always held to be true about our Trinitarian God."
Hill reminded delegates that the Ten Commandments say "the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name."
The Rev. Deborah Funke of Montana warned that the paper would be "theologically confusing and divisive" at a time when the denomination of 2.3 million members faces other troublesome issues.
On Tuesday, the assembly will vote on a proposal to give local congregations and regional "presbyteries" some leeway on ordaining clergy and lay officers living in gay relationships.
Ten conservative Presbyterian groups have warned jointly that approval of what they call "local option" would "promote schism by permitting the disregard of clear standards of Scripture."
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Episcopal Convention Condemns Bible as 'Anti-Jewish'
The 75th General Convention of the Episcopal Church passed a resolution this week essentially condemning the Bible as an "anti-Jewish" document. Not only does the resolution aim to address perceptions of anti-Jewish prejudice in the Bible and Episcopal liturgy, but it suggests that such prejudice is actually "expressed in...Christian Scriptures and liturgical texts."
Originated in the Committee on Prayer Book, Liturgy and Music, Resolution C001 directs the Standing Commission on Liturgy and Music to "collect and develop materials to assist members of the Church to address anti-Jewish prejudice expressed in and stirred by portions of Christian scriptures and liturgical texts, with suggestions for preaching, congregational education, and lectionary use, and to report to the 76th General Convention."
Both houses of the Episcopal Church Convention passed the resolution, including a 68 percent approval in the House of Deputies.
The Rev. Ruth A Meyers of the Diocese of Chicago, Secretary of the Committee on Prayer Book, Liturgy and Music, explained to the House of Deputies why her committee had expanded the wording in the language to include not only prejudice in "liturgical texts," but also in "Christian scriptures."
"We did have a question about whether Scripture itself uses anti-Jewish prejudice," Meyers said. Referring specifically to the Gospel account of the crucifixion, she added, "That scriptural text...has in fact stirred anti-Jewish prejudice and resulted in significant violence toward Jewish people."
Canon Kendall Harmon, Diocese of South Carolina, Deputy on the Education Committee, proposed an amendment on the floor of the House of Deputies to restore the original language of Resolution C001 without condemning "Christian scriptures."
A deputy from Massachusetts argued in favor of Harmon's amendment, "I believe it is so important to deal with the question of the liturgical text and those that may promote or maintain anti-Jewish prejudice, and I am not prepared to deal with the larger question of Scripture."
The Rev. Adam Trambley, rector of Trinity Memorial Episcopal Church and a deputy from Northwestern Pennsylvania, declared, "There is an issue with perceived anti-Semitism in the New Testament...The amendment seems to be more interested in separating the liturgical texts we use from the Scriptural texts."
The amendment failed by a vote of 424-387.
Virtue Online interviewed the Very Rev. Dr. Peter Cook of the Diocese of Western Louisiana, a member of the Committee on Prayer Book, Liturgy and Music, following the final vote of the House of Deputies to concur with the House of Bishops. Cook attempted to dissuade his committee from amending Resolution C001, but his vote was far outweighed.
Resolution C001 "in effect smuggled in a critique of the Scriptural text instead of the liturgical text," said Cook.
Underlying it all was a terribly flawed understanding of God's Word, Cook suggested.
"I think it reaffirms the belief amongst many that our culture is entitled to critique the Scriptures." Cook said that the liberal view of Scripture had triumphed in the passage of the resolution, based on the belief that the Bible is "a document produced in a certain time with limitations, and because of that it may not be relevant for all cultures at all times."
The orthodox view, according to Cook, is that "the Scriptures were written at a particular place in a particular culture, and that they are relevant to all cultures."
But "if Scriptures were only communicated by men, which means that they were man's best efforts to interpret what God is saying," they will inevitably miss the mark, Cook concluded.
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Evangelism Low On Priority List For Episcopalians
The Episcopal Convention this week passed a resolution of "mission priorities" for the church's budget, identifying "Justice and Peace" as the top priority. A proposed amendment in the House of Deputies to make evangelism the first priority was defeated.
According to a recent Gallup survey, Episcopalians are the least likely Christians in America to attend church every week. As the average Sunday attendance of the Episcopal Church continues its rapid decline, and as the average age of Episcopalians continues its increase, both houses of the Episcopal Convention determined that "Justice and Peace" was the more important activity of the church.
"Justice and Peace" gives special attention to the eight Millennium Development Goals of the United Nations, which include the eradication of "extreme poverty and hunger," "universal primary education," the promotion of gender equality and the empowerment of women, and the reduction of child mortality.
Even as the Episcopal Church aims to reduce child mortality, it continues to endorse the practice of abortion. One proposed liturgy in the Committee on Prayer Book, Liturgy and Music includes a prayer entitled "Following the Termination of Pregnancy."
And due in part to the failure of Episcopalians to raise children or to keep them in the church, the second priority of the Episcopal Church is "Young Adults, Youth and Children." The description of the second priority is, "Reaching out to young adults, youth and children through intentional inclusion and full incorporation in the thinking, work, worship and structure of the Church.
The Rev. Kevin Martin, a deputy from Texas and Executive Director of Vital Church Ministries, spoke to the House of Deputies on Thursday, criticizing the Episcopal Church for its failure to prioritize evangelism. "I can assure you that it is not easy to be an advocate for evangelism in the Episcopal Church," he said, recalling the power of the Gospel in his own conversion and ministry. "I want this church to make evangelism a passion and a priority."
"While we continue our steady decline as a denomination," a growing sense of spirituality and a longing for truth takes place in the nation, according to Martin. Yet "the only place we don't find it is in the church."
Not only is the church unable to attract and retain young people, its identity is firmly attached to an older generation of Americans, Martin suggested. "The average age of an Episcopalian is 59 plus years, but even more tragically the average age of a graduating seminarian is 48 plus years of age...Without medicine and technology there will be no Episcopal Church by the year 2020."
After his speech to the House of Deputies, Martin spoke with Virtue Online. "The Episcopal Church preoccupies itself with a lot of things that are not central to the Gospel, and it has not demonstrated a wholehearted commitment to evangelism."
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Episcopalians refuse affirmation of Christ as the only way to be saved
The House of Deputies of the 75th General Convention of the Episcopal Church today overwhelmingly refused to even consider a resolution that affirmed Jesus Christ as the "only name by which any person may be saved."
"This type of language was used in 1920s and 1930s to alienate the type of people who were executed. It was called the Holocaust. I understand the intent, but I ask you to allow the discharge to stay," said the Rev. Eugene C. McDowell, a graduate of Yale Divinity School and Canon Theologian for the Diocese of North Carolina.
The convention's Committee on Evangelism first heard the resolution and discharged it to the chagrin of that committee's chairman, the Rev. Colenzo Hubbard, a noted evangelist and director of Emmanuel Episcopal Center in the Diocese of West Tennessee. The Rev. Hubbard motioned to lift the resolution from the discharge list, but after heated debate, more than seven tenths of the House of Deputies rejected the motion.
Drafted by the Rev. Guido Verbeck, rector of St. Paul's Episcopal Church in the Diocese of Western Louisiana, Resolution D058 declared the Episcopal Church's belief in an "unchanging commitment to Jesus Christ as the Son of God, the only name by which any person may be saved," and it acknowledged evangelism as "the solemn responsibility placed upon us to share Christ with all persons when we hear His words, 'I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No-one comes to the Father except through me' (John 14:6)."
The resolution further affirmed "the substitutionary essence of the Cross and the manifestation of God's unlimited and unending love for all persons," while calling on the Episcopal Church to renew its Scripture-based witness to "all persons."
The Rev. Hubbard said that he voted for the resolution in committee because of his simple responsibility as a Christian. Hubbard quoted several verses of Scripture to demonstrate his conviction. "I do agree that Jesus Christ is both the substitutionary essence of the Cross and the manifestation of God's unlimited and unending love for all persons," said Hubbard, once a star on the University of Alabama football team.
Echoing Hubbard, Canon Dr. Kendall Harmon, a leading conservative in the denomination, argued for a "reaffirmation of what some have called 'the scandal of particularity' of the Cross."
Judy Mayo from the Diocese of Fort Worth also opposed discharge. "My friends, this is a church convention, and this is the very essence of our faith. This may be the most important thing we deal with at this entire convention...Surely we can say together that Jesus Christ is Lord. And if we can't, we have no reason to be here."
But liberals outnumbered Hubbard, Harman, and Mayo by far.
To acknowledge the exclusive Lordship of Christ in a resolution was too much for the majority of deputies at the 75th General Convention of the Episcopal Church.
The message was clear to the Rev. Donald Perschall, rector of St. John's Episcopal Church in Centralia, Illinois, as he left the convention hall Tuesday, shocked by the events of the day. "On top of leaving the Anglican Communion, we've decided to leave Jesus Christ behind as well."
It was not a surprise vote though; the liberalization of the Episcopal Church predates 1982. Episcopalians have made it clear by their rejection of traditional marriage and other recent innovations that a new set of principles now dominate the Episcopal Church. Though the trend toward liberalism in the Episcopal Church has been ongoing for decades, it was in 2003 that the consecration of a homosexual as Bishop of New Hampshire crystallized the departure of the denomination from its bearings in classical Anglicanism.
Dr. Michael Howell of the Diocese of Southwestern Florida and a member of the Special Committee that deliberated the Convention's response to the global Anglican Communion's Windsor Report, told VirtueOnline that the discharge of Resolution D058 is "very much related" to the failure of Resolution A161 moments earlier.
A161 would place a moratorium on the consecration of homosexual bishops and the blessing of homosexual unions in a minimal effort to comply with the Windsor Report. It was soundly defeated on the floor of the House of Deputies Tuesday.
"If we cannot affirm the unique salvific power of Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior, we are no longer a Christian church." Switching to a sarcastic tone, Howell declared, "We have no need for a Creed. Why do again what we did in the past?"
"This clearly shows that we are of a mind that does not affirm Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. And we should not be surprised that our church is dying spiritually," said Howell.
The final tally on the electronic vote was 70.5 percent for discharge (675 votes) and just 29.5 (242 votes) to consider the resolution affirming Jesus Christ as Lord.
FULL TEXT:
RESOLUTION D058 SALVATION THROUGH CHRIST ALONE
Discharged in committee.
Discharge upheld by House of Deputies, 75th General Convention.
Resolved, the House of _____ concurring, That the 75th General Convention of the Episcopal Church declares its unchanging commitment to Jesus Christ as the Son of God, the only name by which any person may be saved (Article XVIII); and be it further Resolved, That we acknowledge the solemn responsibility placed upon us to share Christ with all persons when we hear His words, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life.
No-one comes to the Father except through me" (John 14:6); and be it further Resolved, That we affirm that in Christ there is both the substitutionary essence of the Cross and the manifestation of God's unlimited and unending love for all persons; and be it further Resolved, That we renew our dedication to be faithful witnesses to all persons of the saving love of God perfectly and uniquely revealed in Jesus and upheld by the full testimony of Holy Scripture.
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Here's a brief summary of an article at CuttingEdge.org about the Episcopalian church from this summer, June 2006:
* "The Greatest Single Instance of Church Apostasy of All Time!?"
The Episcopalian Church committed two of the largest Apostasies imaginable during their annual national conference. When the Apostle Paul said that Antichrist could not arise unless and until the prophesied great Apostasy had occurred (2 Thess 2:3), what he was really saying was that Church leaders committing the Apostasy were literally opening the door to the appearance of Antichrist; this Man of Sin has always been blocked by this door, guarded by the true Christian Faith.
Biblical Definition of Apostasy: The predicted great falling away of those who have professed to be Christians -- Denying key Christian doctrines.
You will discover, to your immense shock, that the Episcopalian Church has now adopted the key doctrine of Antichrist and is thus aiding in the opening of that door. <http://cuttingedge.org/news/n2140.cfm>
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END OF QUOTED MATERIAL from Prior Thread.
/ag
Is Jesus becoming less relevant - even to Christians?
by nicolaou 53 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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abbagail
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LittleToe
I am so surprised at you.
Are you too lazy...
It seems obvious...
I'm actually shocked at YOUR seemingly denial of the facts...
...whatever!
Not only a bigot, but can I now go as far as to say a small-minded, dismissive, ignorant, condescending bigot? You tell me...
One person's facts are another person's fantasy. I read those links the first time around, and refreshed my memory of them this time around as well. If you take the time to look you'll see that I posted extensively to that thread.
But again, why shoot the messenger?
Because the messenger is spouting nonesense and is wearing the wrong colour of plaid.
So tell me - do you honestly believe that those articles are representative of the opinions of those denominations? If so, are you talking regionally, nationally or internationally? I would really like to know the breadth of scope that you are suggesting - or are you so surprised and shocked at the obviousness of your comments that you feel that the charge of laziness cannot be laid at your own doorstep?
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Deputy Dog
nic
DD: What is self-righteousness?
The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia
SELF-RIGHTEOUSNESS
self-ri'-chus-nes:
A term that has come to designate moral living as a way of salvation; or as a ground for neglecting the redemptive work of Jesus Christ. The thought is present in the teaching of Jesus, who spoke one parable particularly to such as reckoned themselves to be righteous (Luke 18:9). The Pharisees quite generally resented the idea of Jesus that all men needed repentance and they most of all. They regarded themselves as righteous and looked with contempt on "sinners." Paul in all his writings, especially Romans 3; Galatians 3; Ephesians 2; Philippians 3, contrasts the righteousness that is God's gift to men of faith in Jesus Christ, with righteousness that is "of the law" and "in the flesh." By this latter he means formal conformity to legal requirements in the strength of unregenerate human nature. He is careful to maintain (compare Ro 7) that the Law is never really kept by one's own power. On the other hand, in full agreement with Jesus, Paul looks to genuine righteousness in living as the demand and achievement of salvation based on faith. God's gift here consists in the capacity progressively to realize righteousness in life (compare Romans 8:1).
William Owen Carver
This was the point Paul was making in Galations 3
You appear to condemn it but in the absence of a belief in Christ wouldn't you at least prefer atheists and others to behave with a form of morality and civility which, while it may be godless, is at least edifying and conducive to peaceful living?
You may want to take that up with Christ. You made this point!
But there's my point. Isn't Jesus becoming less and less relevant? The vicar or priest may focus on his compassion or humility once a week but the point is that a moral lesson has been taught. Is Jesus simply becoming a vehicle for this moral education?
I certainly don't pour scorn on good people living a christian life by insinuating that theirs is just a placebo-righteousness or hero-righteousness.
That's exactly how this comes across to those of us who love Christ.
As I said in my opening comments, "it's what people do that matters!"
Matters to whom?
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nicolaou
I think the same basic question has been raised by various posters; "What is a Christian?" We can dispute about it forever but there will never be agreement. Some say that living the 'Christian life' is what matters, others that agreement upon certain minimum tenets is essential. Some accept that 'true' Christians are to be found amongst many different denominations, still others that all real Christians can only be found within one narrowly defined group.
I've never met a Christian yet who didn't make the claim about at least some other Christians that they weren't 'true' Christians.
Excluding groups from your definition in this way is a simple way to 'prove' your proposition but as a reasoned argument it is astonishingly weak! You could prove almost anything using that method. I could 'prove' that all swans are white by simply refusing to to count as a swan any bird that was not white. Ridiculous.
It seems to me that most squabbling Christians have made my point for me. Jesus is important, he is a potent figure and a central totem of the Christian faith but among his followers he seems to be losing the battle for relevance to the label makers and definers of Christianity.
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5go
It seems to me that most squabbling Christians have made my point for me. Jesus is important, he is a potent figure and a central totem of the Christian faith but among his followers he seems to be losing the battle for relevance to the label makers and definers of Christianity
yep that !
And also jesus is bascaly the becoming white noise to most people ! jesus is lord, jesus is the savior, jesus loves, jesus is god, jesus loves you, jesus, jesus, jesus, and jesus. You begin to think your hearing a broken jesus record or jesus subliminal jesus messages. jesus
thank you, jesus
5go, jesus
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LittleToe
Still missing the point?
If you haven't walked a mile in the shoes how do you expect to understand?
In nautical navigation you need three points of reference to "triangulate" a coordinate accurately. Most folks here have have the JW point of reference but that is as far as their religious experience can take them. They may have a second [negative] point of reference being irreligious. Precious few actually bother to explore what "Jesus" means to a wider world by experiencing it. Such myopia (and I don't mean that in a derogatory way) is only going to produce a fuzzy image at best.
Some say that living the 'Christian life' is what matters, others that agreement upon certain minimum tenets is essential. Some accept that 'true' Christians are to be found amongst many different denominations, still others that all real Christians can only be found within one narrowly defined group.
This is a typical example of what I mean. Every one of those examples is egocentric. Not one of those comments comes from a perspective of "What's Jesus' view?"
And also jesus is bascaly the becoming white noise to most people !
Which people?
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RAF
Nic : Jesus is important, he is a potent figure and a central totem of the Christian faith but among hisfollowers he seems to be losing the battle for relevance to the label makers and definers of Christianity
I'm not talking to Nic especially here:
I must admit that in reading lots of comments its becoming blur ... I can read the similarities, but when it comes to get into too much details that's where it leads. But I have nothing to say against that anyway there are several roads to lead to some points ... But I'm not for any wasting time from any who would say he speaks for God/Christ and moreover gets into too much rules (dictated by ancient contextual situations) which only leads to dissapointement (and can be irrelevant - regarding what is important) cause there is no rule but only what is important : Treat your brother the way you would like to be treated (to resume)
To me since spiritualy Christ is the temple, and that we are not supposed to be leaded by anything but the Word/the Lord ... and that the Holly spirit (that I could translate as sane spirit - the contrary of insane) I don't see any reason to go further than that in my approche and belief ... My faith just became very strong without anyone telling me wathever (but the Word - From the bible and my experience).
Also really thinking that religion (all of them are fooling people) and from what I read in he bible being christian have nothing to do with being in a particular religion ... human religion (cause that is what it is) will just lose all their interest at some point because they are all getting nasty for lots of reasons and therefor dissapointing (They just want to sit on the trone : in a way or an other they forget about who is the Master and that everybody on earth are brothers (as spirits) ... From that I'm just taking the shortest path
So to me anyone who have a sane spirit toward others is Christian from is heart (even if he is messes up from time to time : Read Roman 7 - even if he is from an other religion since he his not attached to it - that is idolatry) - so you can be from any religion - but then you just take the risk to be dissapointed by it. Because it will fall down anyway (people got enough at some point - the rulers are human what can we espect from them really?).
(To image my feeling about this) I mean If I would like to be married with a man, I wouldn't need to be attached to an other one, in an other house, to feel like I'm really married with him. that would be adulterian spiritually talking. what is the need? To feel good? Christ is not enough? See what I mean ? ... It just looks as simple as that for me.
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5go
Which people?
Basicaly anyone that isn't like this guy. jesus
Long live jesus Homer Simpson ! jesus -
nicolaou
5go: Good point, well made
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If you haven't walked a mile in the shoes how do you expect to understand?
Ross: It's a valid observation and as you correctly point out, I only "have the JW point of reference [and] that is as far as [my] religious experience can take [me]". But what am I supposed to do? Walk a mile as a Lutheran to understand Lutherans? What if I also want to understand Episcopalians, Baptists, Mormons, Christadelphians, not to mention the various brances of Islam, Sikhism, Judaism and all the rest? That's an awful lot of miles and a hell of a lot of shoes!
I'm sure many Imams would say "Precious few actually bother to explore what "Mohammed" means to a wider world by experiencing it."
No. I can only try to understand Christians through my own limited experience, my observations and - importantly - by reference to the touchstone of all Christian denominations, the 'Holy' Bible, especially the Greek Scriptures and in that I am not totally ignorant. We are all 'myopic' in many different areas, I guess that's why discussion boards like this one flourish.
DD: In response to my comments that you might "at least prefer atheists and others to behave with a form of morality and civility" you said: "You may want to take that up with Christ." Face the question DD, I'm asking you, not Jesus. How would you like non-christians and atheists to behave?
It's what people do that matters to me!
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Rooster
JW's are not Christians they are modern day Jews. Oh and don’t forget to grab hold of the skirt of the Jew!
Long live jesus Homer Simpson ! jesus