144000, Where did Russell get his idea, and what do other religions believe

by jwfacts 31 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • moggy lover
    moggy lover

    Although the details may vary among various Evangelical Bible groups some facts we can garner about their views on the 144k are:

    1 They are not in existence at the present. Their presence is mentioned in Rev ch 7, which begins with the words: "After these things" So, evidently it is only after some events, which are mentioned in Ch 6, that the 144k emerge. [Interestingly, in the Rev book, which gives an exhaustive discussion of this section, in order to suggest the on-going existence of the 144k since 33AD, these three words are artfully ignored. When, in conversation with various WT followers I mentioned these words, requiring a justification for why these 144k can possibly exist "before these things" the reply I was given was that Rev does not always mean what it says. "After these things" can be a symbol for "before these things" With such elastic logic, one can only suggest that the Bible can be made to say any thing]

    2 Most agree that Ch 6 tells of the opening of the Great Tribulation, which even the Rev book agrees with.

    3 So, somtime after the start of the Great Tribulation, whoever these 144k are, they will begin what is called a "Great Tribulation ministry" ie a preaching work world-wide where the message of the Kingdom of Christ will be preached to all. This and not a current flawed work by the WTS, is the fulfillment of Matt 24:14, which entire Ch is devoted to the future events of the GT

    4 The details are not agreed on by all, but these 144k, are indeed a literal number, and literal Jews, evidently young unmarried men, from the various tribes mentioned. It needs to be remembered that Protestant Evangelical groups who still advocate a future blessing for the Jewish people, do not believe, like the WTS believes, that the 12 tribes have become lost. It is just that the means of identifying them are. An archaeological find, an exposure of documents brought about by some earthquake, a discovery in some long lost library etc, could easily provide a means to identifying these tribes.

    5 Some Evangelical groups believe that when the GT begins, the Rapture takes place, removing all True Christians from the scene. [Pre-Tribulationists] This will require the work of "born again" Jews to do the preaching work during this time. Some believe that during the 7 year period that marks the GT, the Rapture only occurs at the mid-point, ie after three and a half years, so these 144k Jews will assist the Christans in the preaching work till the rapture, when they will continue on their own.[Mid-Tribulationists]

    6 Whatever the details, as a consequence of this evalgelizing work, a number of "Tribulation Saints" will be saved, who will end up "before the throne" as a great crowd. They will be the ones who cared for Christ's "brothers" [the 144k] during the GT [Matt 25:40], and who will gain the approval of Christ for doing so.

    These are the views that are held by those who prefer a literalist, futurist interpretation of Rev. Other Evangelicals who hold to either a preterite or historical interpretation, [sometimes referred to as Amillennialists] feel that the 144k "Jews" are a symbolic number representing several things. The most common view is that they represent the Church down through the centuries.

    Real Christianity allows for a variety of interpretations, all compatible with the understanding of what the Holy Spirit leads one to believe. Unlike the haughty, pompous, attitude of the WTS whch insists on its own imperatives, I have yet to see one Evangelical "disfellowship" another simply for holding a different opinion.

    Cheers

  • heathen
    heathen

    What did John really mean?

    The WTBTS has alot of very convoluted dogma in connection to their belief. My take on it is that the 144k are martyrs and actually die while preaching about jesus. I still believe that the GC are a seperate number that never die and are, as the fundies would say , (raptured) during the GT. The 144k are also co-rulers with christ for the millenium.

  • jwfacts
    jwfacts

    Thanks again.

    Good summary Moggy.

  • Hellrider
    Hellrider

    Press on link and read this commentary on Revelation 7:

    http://www.biblegateway.com/resources/commentaries/?action=getCommentaryText&cid=17&source=1&seq=i.73.7.1

    ...the 144000 is not so difficult at all. Only weird adventist-sects has screwed up on this one, with the motivation being their extreme emphasis on themselves, and how "special" they themselves are, having the correct Bible-interpretations and all...like the author says:

    "Sectarian groups in every age have seen themselves in John's 144,000 (compare also 14:1). The number has become synonymous with those who are saved, elect or chosen. Springfield, Missouri (population about 140,000), is widely known as "the buckle of the Bible belt." A colleague of mine once joked that when its population reached 144,000 the Second Coming would take place! When sectarian groups grow beyond that magic number, they often begin to interpret Revelation symbolically rather than literally, and in fact there are clues within the text that a symbolic interpretation is required. "

  • heathen
    heathen

    The thing that gets me is when people say they believe these to be virgin male jews . literally. Yah right. I also believe they are male eunichs (or people that make themselves one) while giving whole souled service to God , it's pretty obvious it's not talking about natural jews so it includes people of all nationalities.

  • heathen
    heathen

    The thing that gets me is when people say they believe these to be virgin male jews . literally. Yah right. I also believe they are male eunichs (or people that make themselves one) while giving whole souled service to God , it's pretty obvious it's not talking about natural jews so it includes people of all nationalities.

  • Hellrider
    Hellrider
    it's pretty obvious it's not talking about natural jews so it includes people of all nationalities.

    And why is that?

  • the sage
    the sage

    JWFACTS

    Could it be since Revelation is obviously written in symbolism, the number 144,000 is not literal, but a sealed number, a symbolic perfect number confirmed by God. A balanced designated number that would be taken from every tribe of the sons of Israel (the people of God), with the same arrangement of 12 time 12 ruling heads as was the Jewish nation. However now, with the coming of the Christ, God turned to the nations and faithful Jews to make up the body of Christ, the ruling church. Acts 15:14-17; Rom.2:28,29; Gal.3:28,29; Col.3:11,12.

    This was in contrast to the great multitude, which was not sealed and no man was able to number. Rev.7:9.

    The Sage!

  • heathen
    heathen

    Why is that ? you ask? well the names of the twelve tribes are different than the original hebrew tribes . Also if you read the other apostle John writings he refers to the twelve tribes being scattered about . The apostle Paul as well wrote how the gentiles would be grafted in the olive branch and be co-rulers with christ in the kingdom . Besides that , I mean let's be real here , how many men remain virgins their whole life? I think jesus was the only one ever .LOL

  • Hellrider
    Hellrider

    The disreprancy in the names is a good point. Manasseh and Joseph is included, although Manasseh was the son of Joseph. Dan is excluded (probably because he was the tool of the Serpent, in Genesis 49). But this doesn`t necessarily exclude the other possible theory, that the 144000 refers to judeo-christians, the christians that lived while Jesus Christ was alive. On the other hand, it does hint the the tradition of Paul of viewing whoever is a member of the "true Israel" as depending on the condition of the heart/spirit of the person (which is why Dan is excluded, for not having a pure heart/spirit). My problem is that if the 144000 doesn not refer to the judeo-christians of Jesus time, why then separate the christians into two groups? Well, not really separate (because they`re both heading the same way), but in a way, they are still two distinctive groups, at least in origin. Why the distinction, that is my question (unless the 144000 refers to the original judeo-christians, of course, the specific number, 144, is symbolic, without a doubt)?

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